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TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

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Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#21

Post by asdlfj2sd33 »

GrishaRemake wrote: post #13
biohacker42 wrote: post #7

Can I flag this for being stupid? OK I am instead going to use it as a teaching moment. Remember hacker news disease? The symptom of having a strong opinion on topics you really shouldn't be having an opinion on? OK so if you find yourself even remotely agreeing with the Aquatic Ape theory, do yourself a favor and research the counter evidence, it's easy to find and obvious enough to convince yourself. It's just a sh…

First of all, this theory is not stupid. Humans belong to a small number of animal groups that display vocal learning. Vocal Learning Animals have a special “language” gene ( FoxP2 ), that gives them the ability to learn and imitate sounds they hear. Among mammals only Dolphins, Whales, Seals, Elephants and Humans have FoxP2 gene. All of them are aquatic animals or have aquatic ancestors.

Elephants and Humans aren't aquatic.

Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#22

Post by GrishaRemake »

asdlfj2sd33 wrote: post #21
GrishaRemake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, this theory is not stupid. Humans belong to a small number of animal groups that display vocal learning. Vocal Learning Animals have a special “language” gene ( FoxP2 ), that gives them the ability to learn and imitate sounds they hear. Among mammals only Dolphins, Whales, Seals, Elephants and Humans have FoxP2 gene. All of them are aquatic animals or have aquatic ancestors.

Elephants and Humans aren't aquatic.

The ancestor of the elephants was aquatic and had a similar lifestyle to a hippopotamus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#Evolution

Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#23

Post by BerislavLopac »

asdlfj2sd33 wrote: post #20
BerislavLopac wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That site proves nothing. It just counteracts AAT "claims" with "facts" not backed with too much hard evidence. The problem with the original AAT is that it piles together everything and the kitchen sink if there might be drawn a most remote connection between it and water. It's very easy to dismiss the theory as it was set -- but some individual aspects of it have a lot of merit, and even more mainstream anthropolog…

but were likely used to wading in shallow pools and similar bodies of water That's not disputed. There's food in them shallow pools and there's plentiful evidence of people eating tons of shellfish etc, all around the world. This is also indisputably NOT an aquatic ape. The swimming macaques in the Ganges delta aren't aquatic apes. They are land monkeys who can and do swim and search for food under water. Tigers swim…

Elephants can swim for miles, and lots and lots of other land animals can and do swim a lot. But that still leaves them far, far short of being aquatic animals.

True. This is why that unfortunate moniker "aquatic" is misleading.

And on your second point: warm water protects from cold, and even from venom if local venomous animals can't swim. And there is plenty of naturally warm water around. Regarding the other reasons to lose fur, I'm still waiting to see any other animal which has lost its fur for any of the reasons above. And yes, the world ran out of water; specifically, the immediate habitat of our ancestors at one point ran out of warm water.

You have to keep in mind that it has been scientifically proven that the modern humans had a few very close calls in their history, and that we are descended from a small group that at one point had no more than about 1000 individuals, who probably inhabited a small area. So all the effects could have easily be local to produce the modern traits.

Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#24

Post by marze »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

It should be noted that the Aquatic Ape theory is controversial at best.

In the late 1600s, Nicolaus Steno published his book laying down the foundations of the science of Geology.

What prompted the work was the fact people found sea shells and fossil shark teeth on mountains and in mines and embedded in rock everywhere.

The theory at the time was that the shells just grew in the rock, basically 'magically'.

Steno's theory that the shells were deposited in sedimentary layers in water that later turned to rock and were uplifted took about 120 years to be accepted.

Science has proven slow to accept what in retrospect appears completely obvious. 120 years to decide shells embedded in rock identical to living shells didn't just 'grow' there.

Fossil evidence for the aquatic ape theory, if it exists at all, would be found about 300 feet below sea level (the sea is higher now).

The ability of humans to dive deeply in the ocean and swim so well suggests it was important for survival at some point in the past. And it doesn't seem unreasonable that early humans lived along the coasts and ate fish and other sea life.

I'm not sure why this idea is so controversial, really.

Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#25

Post by Tichy »

GrishaRemake wrote: post #19
Tichy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess it is responsible for one crucial part for the "speech apparatus", but that doesn't make it the speed apparatus. A car without the ignition loses the ability to drive, yet the ignition hardly seems the most important part in the car. I feel the same uneasyness when I hear "hormone X is the cause of ability Y" - sure, maybe if Hormone X is missing, ability Y is missing. But Hormone X does not manufacture…

An ignition indicates that the car has an internal combustion engine. The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that make vocal learning possible. The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in terrestrial apes

"The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that make vocal learning possible."

That's kind of what I meant: surely that speech gene is not a gene that describes a whole brain?

"The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in terrestrial apes"

Doesn't that refute the "speech gene" theory? Surely some terrestrial apes also communicate by "speech"?

I don't know enough about genetics to confidently discuss this more. Presumably if several species share a gene, they are likely to have a common ancestor?

Re: TED Talk: Elaine Morgan says we evolved from Aquatic Apes.

#26

Post by GrishaRemake »

Tichy wrote: post #25
GrishaRemake wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ignition indicates that the car has an internal combustion engine. The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that make vocal learning possible. The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in terrestrial apes

"The speech-enabling gene FOXP2 indicates that there are brain circuits that make vocal learning possible." That's kind of what I meant: surely that speech gene is not a gene that describes a whole brain? "The question is why this gene is present in aquatic mammals and is absent in terrestrial apes" Doesn't that refute the "speech gene" theory? Surely some terrestrial apes also communicate by "speech"? I don't know e…

"Vocal learning, the substrate of human language, is a very rare trait. It is known to be present in only 6 groups of animals: 3 groups of birds (parrots, songbirds, and hummingbirds) and 3 groups of mammals (bats, cetaceans[whales/dolphins], and humans).

All other groups of animals are thought to produce genetically innate vocalizations.

To understand this concept, it is important to distinguish vocal learning from auditory learning. Auditory learning is the ability to make sound associations, such as a dog learning how to respond to the sound "sit". All vertebrates have auditory learning.

Vocal learning is the ability to imitate sounds that you hear, such as a human or a parrot imitating the sound "sit". Currently only vocal learners have been found to have forebrain regions dedicated to vocal learning and production of these learned vocalizations. Vocal non-learners only have been found to have non-forebrain vocal regions responsible for the production of innate vocalizations." http://www.jarvislab.net/Evolution.html

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