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A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

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Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#51

Post by maxerickson »

bertil wrote: post #23
r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a ­license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

iamsalman offers a great response. Legally (and conceptually) there is the idea of a collection, a compilation being valuable in and on itself: this has been enforced to prevent people from selling phone books and TV programs without paying the original ‘compilers’, phone companies and TV stations, not as operators but original authors of an exhaustive description. Collecting changes useless information into, anecdot…

U.S. law has moved away from that idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

But it should still be straightforward to make laws saying that the tags on a vehicle are a particular type of information and then restrict the way that businesses are allowed to use it.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#52

Post by ryusage »

talmand wrote: post #38
ctdonath wrote: post #18

Is this discussion any different than the one we had a couple decades ago when credit/debit cards went from occasional use to primary currency? There was huge outcry about how everyone would be tracked, how every purchase you made could be aggregated and monitored and tracked and sold and leveraged, how personal problems could arise when a spouse or lawyer saw inappropriate purchases on bank card records, etc etc. To…

While true, I would imagine it is much easier for a good number of people to go cash only to avoid that, as opposed to never driving a car again. Then when face recognition kicks in, never going out in public. Might be an opportunity in there somewhere for selling comfortable face masks.

I'm curious when we'll start seeing people dressing like this:

http://ahprojects.com/projects/stealth-wear

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#53

Post by gnerd »

hrjet wrote: post #30
crypt1d wrote: post #13

I really, really want to say that I think this technology is a bad idea. But I don't. I don't think that the technology is the problem here, as Digital Recognition said they are not _technically_ invading privacy since the license plates are available for everyone to see. And if you outlaw it, whats stopping a few crooks organizing their own underground data collection and selling the stuff on a black market? Rather,…

> I'd prefer to see a different way of "licensing" cars. How about an LCD screen that shows a captcha image of the license number? The captcha image can be regenerated after a set interval, for example, a day. Edit: This would have the benefit that humans can still read it, but making it difficult for OCR.

Weren't modern license plates made the way they are to aid automatic (or human) detection? For instance, traffic cameras, automated scanning from traffic police to make sure your car is insured or even your elderly neighbour writing down a license plate late at night after seeing a car speed away from a possible hit-and-run.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#55

Post by hengheng »

rmc wrote: post #50
weavie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says they cost 10,000-17,000 which surprises me. Surely an iPhone would be enough technology for this?

In the same way an iphone can be good enough for your wedding photos? These are high quality cameras, that have to work in large range of weather and lighting conditions. This cost might also include the software to OCR and store the details.

Parent's point was valid though, I can't imagine these devices to cost more than $170 in a couple of years, making this discussion quite relevant.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#56

Post by AUmrysh »

weavie wrote: post #42
darksim905 wrote: post #9

Where exactly do they get their scanner tools from? I always thought these were police/3 letter agency only?

The article says they cost 10,000-17,000 which surprises me. Surely an iPhone would be enough technology for this?

An iPhone camera isn't really good enough to OCR vehicles as you move past them in a parking lot. You get skew from rolling shutter effects, plus it's going to be shaking violently when attached to an automobile without proper dampening.

The cameras used for OCR on license plates need to have a fairly high resolution, fast shutter speed, and a number of other little additions which make it more expensive than an iPhone camera. Granted, $10,000 is really expensive for such a device, and the real cost for something like that is probably a few hundred dollars, but after you add in software and radio communication (probably a cell plan if I had to guess), you're looking at an expensive device.

Of course, we could build one ourselves for a fraction of that, but that's why we don't drive tow-trucks or license plate scanner cars for a living.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#57

Post by berberous »

rmc wrote: post #50
weavie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says they cost 10,000-17,000 which surprises me. Surely an iPhone would be enough technology for this?

In the same way an iphone can be good enough for your wedding photos? These are high quality cameras, that have to work in large range of weather and lighting conditions. This cost might also include the software to OCR and store the details.

Correct, these work in inclement weather, in various lighting conditions, at high speeds (60 mph down the highway), and include computers that OCR, extract the plate number, match against a large database, and notify on a dashboard laptop if a hit occurs. They also often include multiple cameras (e.g. to capture cars parked on the left and the right of a street.)

One of these companies does in fact have an iPhone app that police officers can use to query a national database, but it can't scan 1800 plates per minute as you cruise down a highway.

Here's an example large manufacturer of these: http://elsag.com/mobile.htm

Also note that they help local and state agencies obtain grant funding from federal sources, so I'm sure there's a bit of cost-cutting that could occur in a less bureaucratic and funded market. Also, these were like $30k 10 years ago, so prices are falling.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#58

Post by samstave »

berberous wrote: post #21
r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a ­license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wheels/2011/10/27/how-steve-...

Fuck everything about license plate tracking, storing and mining.

Facebook is required by the city of Menlo park to install plate trackers at their new campus building that will track all cars that drive by.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#59

Post by arca_vorago »

walid wrote: post #33
jmnicolas wrote: post #20

I think the first commenter on the site said it all : "the systematic exploitation of private personal information by corporations and government is the modus operandi of a surveillance / police state. Already this is being abused for corporate espionage, political benefit, and a host of criminal enterprises. The manufactured pretext that all these erosions of privacy are ok because "we found bad guys" has been the s…

Although I'm very much miffed by the excessive surveillance of every country these days I don't find this to be the same. Companies and organizations do have the right to check up on people's activities in some manner. If your car wasn't paid for and it belongs to the bank now, I think the bank has the right to know where it is to repossess it. I think this is one of the ugly truths of reality rather than a matter of…

"Companies and organizations do have the right to check up on people's activities in some manner. If your car wasn't paid for and it belongs to the bank now, I think the bank has the right to know where it is to repossess it."

What you are referring to is part of the agreement you make with the lender in which you agree to keep them updated on changes of address, a violation of which they have constitutionally legal methods to address.

So please, elaborate on why you think lenders have a right, beyond the normal legal and reasonable updates of contact information, to "check up on" my activities in any way whatsoever.

This sort of slippery slope reasoning that is very, very dangerous for the peoples rights.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#60

Post by zacinbusiness »

talmand wrote: post #44
zacinbusiness wrote: post #2

This is quite interesting. On the one hand, I do understand that autoloans are very easy to default on. So there should be some method for loan companies to get these vehicles back. However, I also think that loan companies should more carefully screen their applicants. Of course, that would mean that loan companies make less money on loans and fees, and that they lose money on reselling cars that are already partial…

If the loans are so easy to default on, maybe they should rethink the current practices instead of considering a system that's so easily abused to invade people's privacy?

I agree 100%. Loan recovery people are usually pretty vicious, so this sort of thing doesn't surprise me too much.
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