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Goodbye Academia

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181–190 of 217 posts

Re: Goodbye Academia

#181

These kinds of things are daily discussions in laboratories all over the world. Everyone knows there's no future in academia, and so everyone is looking for an exit plan. I actively discourage people from doing a PhD. Academia is a horrible feudalistic system that doesn't pay well enough to keep the bright minds it attracts. There is no sense in being a post-doc for life. Much better to take that hedge fund job. The…

The need for innovation exists regardless of whether there are researchers working in the publicly-funded sector. And, let's face it, much of the research coming out is the result of 'publish or perish' rather than genuine curiosity.

Many great things in the past came from private research. Today's technology companies will probably be forced to invest more in their in-house research rather than acquiring competitors at sky-high prices.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#182
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem is that fundamental research requires funding In biology, yeah, although I think what a lot of people here are doing is reading stories about high-capital-cost fields (experimental physics, biochem, etc.) and then applying it to their own field, which on HN is mostly computer science. CS research really does not require a lot of funding, outside of specific areas (mostly hardware and robotics stuff). Al…

The biggest cost of my computational grants are funding for people . They don't go away just because you can pay for AWS on a credit card.

Well in my case it's easy: I don't need people. :)

Or to be more precise, I don't need employees. I do work with other people, but they aren't my staff. I do some collaborative projects with colleagues, work with masters students doing their masters theses if they're interested (usually 3-5/semester are interested in working on either my projects, or projects I'm interested in), and also work with some people in industry.

Some kinds of research require an army of minions, but I don't really need employees to do mine. In fact generally I prefer having a smaller number of collaborators so I can really be a researcher doing research and writing papers myself, not a research manager, the kind of professor who's the last author on papers written by their students and postdocs. The institution I'm at doesn't expect American-R1-style large labs, so I can do that. Fortunately there are a pretty wide range of institutions with CS departments with different expectations, so there is quite a bit of choice.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem is that fundamental research requires funding In biology, yeah, although I think what a lot of people here are doing is reading stories about high-capital-cost fields (experimental physics, biochem, etc.) and then applying it to their own field, which on HN is mostly computer science. CS research really does not require a lot of funding, outside of specific areas (mostly hardware and robotics stuff). Al…

The financial situation in CS is not at all typical of academia. I'm not sure what your point is. Surely you're not suggesting that all academics should become CS academics?

I'm suggesting that if someone already is in computing, as most HN posters are, then the situation of biology academia isn't really relevant to your own industry vs. academia decision. If you're deciding between academia and a tech startup, you should probably look at conditions in CS academia as the relevant comparison.

Now if you're a biologist, the conditions in biology academia are the relevant comparison. But my impression, based on looking at what YC companies are doing, is that most people deciding between YC and grad school are in either CS or business, not the natural sciences.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#184
It seems to me that there is an enormous amount of negativity towards academia, here. I think it's very unbalanced. Let me redress this a little.

It is true that young academics are not well paid, don't have good job security, and that the academic system is run from the top in the wrong way. Grant-chasing is a fact of life, and administration can distract you from your work.

However, being an academic can be great. I've worked in industry and academia, and I found academia to be less stressful, more rewarding, and more intellectually challenging.

Here are a few great things about academia:

* You get to work with really smart, creative, intellectual, people. Probably the smartest people you meet in your life will be colleagues. It's a very stimulating environment.

* You get to work with young and enthusiastic students and researchers, who constantly challenge you and bring new ideas to the table. It keeps you young.

* You see ideas and technologies that most people don't. For example, I recently saw a bunch of robots in development at another UK institution.

* It's an opportunity to continue learning, with access to great resources (huge libraries, experts on a wide variety of disciplines and sub disciplines down the hallway / across campus).

* You are not constrained to thinking about product development or the short-term. You can think on much greater timescales, and propose and investigate ideas with no direct application.

* When you make a real contribution, find a great result, or inspire other researchers, it's hugely rewarding.

* You're part of a machine that has generated enormous progress. Often people don't recognise it, particularly in Computer Science, because commercial companies appear to have "invented" things that they actually developed from work in academia. The most incredible discoveries and theories have come from academia.

* Every day can be different. You don't repeat the same research twice, so it's a constant progression. This can be really exciting and stimulating.

* You get to travel the world to collaborate, to attend conferences etc. Sometimes you can extend these trips to holidays; I've travelled more since I became an academic than anyone I know outside of academia. You have the opportunity to move overseas and work at foreign institutions.

* You have flexibility in terms of what you wear, how you work, where you work, who you work with -- you get to choose much of the time.

* You have an enormous amount of freedom to organise your time as you see fit. Your hours and holidays are incredibly flexible.

* The money, whilst not great, is enough to live on. If you progress up the ladder to be a senior lecturer or professor (UK), the money is good.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#185
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest cost of my computational grants are funding for people . They don't go away just because you can pay for AWS on a credit card.

Well in my case it's easy: I don't need people. :) Or to be more precise, I don't need employees. I do work with other people, but they aren't my staff. I do some collaborative projects with colleagues, work with masters students doing their masters theses if they're interested (usually 3-5/semester are interested in working on either my projects, or projects I'm interested in), and also work with some people in indu…

If your goal is just to producing quality papers, this is perfectly great. If your research involves systems and implementations, it sucks to have to write every bits of code yourself. I don't think CS research is just about theory, at least not the line of research I am doing, I am all about making it readily available to others to use.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#186
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in my case it's easy: I don't need people. :) Or to be more precise, I don't need employees. I do work with other people, but they aren't my staff. I do some collaborative projects with colleagues, work with masters students doing their masters theses if they're interested (usually 3-5/semester are interested in working on either my projects, or projects I'm interested in), and also work with some people in indu…

If your goal is just to producing quality papers, this is perfectly great. If your research involves systems and implementations, it sucks to have to write every bits of code yourself. I don't think CS research is just about theory, at least not the line of research I am doing, I am all about making it readily available to others to use.

Yeah, it certainly varies. I'm in AI, which is a bit different from systems. A lot of the work is based on existing open-source code, since you don't need to (probably shouldn't) be constantly reinventing the wheel. In my case it's usually the modeling, data analysis, and insights gained from the data that's new, not the underlying software (e.g. I wouldn't write an SMT solver myself).

When I do produce code, I produce prototype code myself or working together with masters students. When the goal is to produce robust, end-user-ready software, I prefer one of two approaches: 1) work within an existing open-source codebase, contributing improvements upstream; or 2) collaborate with a company to turn a prototype into something polished and end-user-ready. Even if I had a bunch of funding, I don't think I'm in a good position to produce and maintain polished end-user-ready software. Academic software has a habit of going unmaintained when the PhD student graduates or the NSF/EU project ends, and research funding isn't really aligned with production needs. John Regehr talks a bit about that here: http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1058. So I tend to stick with either one-off prototypes, or find a way to collaborate with someone (open-source community, company) that is better positioned to maintain software.

Other decisions are also perfectly valid, just given resources and interests I don't see maintaining essentially a software-production company within academia, with paid staff, as feasible for me personally.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#187
One guidebook to the archeological site of ancient Troy, starts with, "Having solved the money problem, Heinrich Schliemann turned to archeology." (For a bio, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann.) Perhaps rather than starting in science and then bailing to industry, academics might follow Schliemann's path and earn their funding first. This won't work for many very expensive fields, but it's unclear how well the funding lottery is working for those fields now.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#188
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the allures of academia is the prospect of doing fundamental research It's also a false allure: the problem is that fundamental research requires funding, and the OP is pointing out that he can't get it. He'll be in essence locked out of research and not make a lot of money at it. This is like saying, "One of the allures of acting is the prospect of being famous and sleeping with lots of fans." On the one hand…

The analogy does not make sense. I know many colleagues who got into academia and were able to find plenty of funding. It wasn't a lucky break that helped them, but hard work and talent. The system is far from perfect, but it is not 'feudal', etc. as the parent comment claims. Systematic hard work can get you results in academia. From what I understand about show-biz, it requires a lot more than just talent and hard…

> Systematic hard work can get you results in academia.

This is not necessarily true. At least in life sciences, there is a big element of pure, dumb luck. Biological systems are inherently noisy, and no matter how diligent we try to be about our processes and protocols, there is always luck.

I spent nearly two years of my life performing a single protocol (an endocytic receptor internallization assay) and the line between "good results" and "wasted a week" was incredibly thin. Some things just require luck to work out, no matter how careful you are.

I left academic biology because I didn't want luck playing into my career. In academic biology you must be incredibly smart, incredibly dedicated, willing to work long hours with little pay, AND be incredibly lucky.

I looked around at the post-docs in my department (at MIT, mind you) and saw brilliant people who would never produce a top-tier article, who had spent so long in their post-doc that they had no chance of ever becoming a professor. They would probably wash out to some industry job at Merck testing cholesterol drugs after wasting 10 years of their life pursuing some fictitious dream.

Truth be told, I wasn't as brilliant as most of the people around me, so I made a judgment call and left. It was the right decision, I'm happier than ever (and actually make money too).

Re: Goodbye Academia

#189

These kinds of things are daily discussions in laboratories all over the world. Everyone knows there's no future in academia, and so everyone is looking for an exit plan. I actively discourage people from doing a PhD. Academia is a horrible feudalistic system that doesn't pay well enough to keep the bright minds it attracts. There is no sense in being a post-doc for life. Much better to take that hedge fund job. The…

Here's the open question... If people are really forced to work on 2 year time horizons, should this investment really be happening in the private sector rather than the government? I get the idea of funding basic science with 20+ year time horizons to benefit humanity, but tactical solutions?

Separately - is this an issue with just new scientists, or existing ones too? The useful data would be "Total NIH funding" and "Per scientist funding." My anecdotal (and quite possibly unrepresentative!) data is that the total pie is staying the same size, but going to a set of existing researchers in a "Winner Takes All" manner. It's not conducive to new independent researchers, but perhaps we are creating too many for a fixed pie of research money.

Alternatively, should tuition be funding research if we are now in the business of producing researchers for the private sector?

It just seems to me that long term science as a group of scientists begging for government funding is no longer sustainable.

Re: Goodbye Academia

#190
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers make the problem clear Right, so the problem is that there are way too many students. Is the burden on the upcoming students to discontinue their track or on the universities (etc) to slow admissions and hiring postdocs?

The problem facing universities is that if they slow the rate of new PhD students and postdocs, they will quite simply have to shutter the labs. The entire system is built on the backs of very cheap research labor. That superstar researcher you see on television talking about the big new breakthrough from his or her lab hasn't written a line of code or laid hands on a beaker in 20 years. His or her job is to get a gr…

offering phd programs and granting phds is ultimately the responsibility of the university/institute.

although grad students get paid little, the total cost to a lab of a grad student is higher than a tech[nical assistant]. if there were less grad students, labs would hire more techs.

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