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The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

theguardian.com

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Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#11

Post by toufka »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #7
cinskiy wrote: post #4

I'm Russian, I hate Putin, I support our troops in Crimea, and the article is right that Nato just doesn't want to lose influence right under the Russian border, that's all western hysteria is about. However I think news like this probably should be posted on reddit than here.

I'm curious, what makes you support the invasion? I think it's obvious to everyone that NATO would love to have influence on the Russian border, and that Russia would prefer if that didn't happen, but that doesn't make a military invasion okay. The "Western hysteria," at least what I've seen from over here in the good old US of A, is about the possibility of a significant (which it would be even if nobody else gets i…

I am not him and I'm not qualified to speak with any kind of authority about this particular event. However the use of the word 'invasion' is pretty loaded. Keep in mind that the entire area was once a larger whole - the USSR. Imagine if the US broke apart into its constituent states. Places like St. Louis would feel mighty strange. Again, I'm not defending this particular situation, but I can see how Missouri sending troops into Illinois might not need be termed quite as harsh as an invasion, though still an aggressive act. So far as I can tell, so far there has been more violence in Kiev during the protests than during this 'invasion'.

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#12

Post by pedalpete »

sdrothrock wrote: post #2

I was confused by the claim that Kerry threatened "to expel Russia from the G8." I clicked the link and went to the other article, which had the following quote from Kerry: "He is not going to have a Sochi G8, he may not even remain in the G8 if this continues." Am I mistaken in assuming that the G8 is not under American control? At worst, Kerry could recommend that the US not take part in the Sochi-hosted G8, but th…

Australia has also talked of removing Russia from the G8, which is now being called the G7, I'm sure just as a sign of the members being serious.

I suspect all it takes is for G7 countries not to invite Russia to the meetings.

They have been uninvited to the G20 meetings in Australia.

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#13

Post by GeneralMayhem »

toufka wrote: post #11
GeneralMayhem wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, what makes you support the invasion? I think it's obvious to everyone that NATO would love to have influence on the Russian border, and that Russia would prefer if that didn't happen, but that doesn't make a military invasion okay. The "Western hysteria," at least what I've seen from over here in the good old US of A, is about the possibility of a significant (which it would be even if nobody else gets i…

I am not him and I'm not qualified to speak with any kind of authority about this particular event. However the use of the word 'invasion' is pretty loaded. Keep in mind that the entire area was once a larger whole - the USSR. Imagine if the US broke apart into its constituent states. Places like St. Louis would feel mighty strange. Again, I'm not defending this particular situation, but I can see how Missouri sendin…

I'm pretty sure if Missouri and Illinois were independent nations, either one would be understandably upset about the other sending armed soldiers into its territory unasked. Actually, the idea that they had been part of a whole before would make me even more wary, particularly if it were California or Texas (i.e. one of the more "dominant" US states).

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#14

Post by kushti »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #5

I don't think it's possible to over-dramatize a sovereign nation's cities and airports being occupied by its neighbor. This isn't a little misunderstanding or an "oops, somebody flew a few miles off course and wound up in your airspace."

I think you have a read a lot of media hysteria. First, Crimea people and region parliament took control over region with no respect to Kiev before any army forces. Second, it's not neighbour in airports / cities but Army of Crimea(former army members / Kiev troops taken Crimea side / former Berkut members etc).

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#15

Post by kushti »

coffeemug wrote: post #3

This opinion piece is insane. Sending troops in unmarked uniforms with unmarked vehicles to annex the Crimean Peninsula under the pretense of protection from ethnic cleansing, which anyone with access to Facebook and Twitter can easily see is completely manufactured by the Russian propaganda machine, without buy-in from the international community, is an obvious act of aggression. Putin keeps upping the ante because…

Why do you just repeat hysteria from media & social networks? Have you friends in Crimea or your own thoughts?

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#16

Post by sdrothrock »

pedalpete wrote: post #12
sdrothrock wrote: post #2

I was confused by the claim that Kerry threatened "to expel Russia from the G8." I clicked the link and went to the other article, which had the following quote from Kerry: "He is not going to have a Sochi G8, he may not even remain in the G8 if this continues." Am I mistaken in assuming that the G8 is not under American control? At worst, Kerry could recommend that the US not take part in the Sochi-hosted G8, but th…

Australia has also talked of removing Russia from the G8, which is now being called the G7, I'm sure just as a sign of the members being serious. I suspect all it takes is for G7 countries not to invite Russia to the meetings. They have been uninvited to the G20 meetings in Australia.

I'm still really confused because according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8#Annual_summit, the next summit is supposed to be held in Sochi.

Nobody's going to be able to uninvite Russia from their own summit, so if the US and Australia "remove" Russia and don't attend the summit, doesn't it just become a G6 (G8 minus the US and Australia)?

In order to "remove" Russia, all seven countries would have to agree to not go to Sochi and also to have the summit somewhere outside of Russia.

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#17

Post by gregsq »

sdrothrock wrote: post #16
pedalpete wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia has also talked of removing Russia from the G8, which is now being called the G7, I'm sure just as a sign of the members being serious. I suspect all it takes is for G7 countries not to invite Russia to the meetings. They have been uninvited to the G20 meetings in Australia.

I'm still really confused because according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8#Annual_summit , the next summit is supposed to be held in Sochi. Nobody's going to be able to uninvite Russia from their own summit, so if the US and Australia "remove" Russia and don't attend the summit, doesn't it just become a G6 (G8 minus the US and Australia)? In order to "remove" Russia, all seven countries would have to agree to not…

Australia is not in the G8. The G8 is the G7 plus one. G7 agree to roll back is the idea.

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#18

Post by pedalpete »

gregsq wrote: post #17
sdrothrock wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still really confused because according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8#Annual_summit , the next summit is supposed to be held in Sochi. Nobody's going to be able to uninvite Russia from their own summit, so if the US and Australia "remove" Russia and don't attend the summit, doesn't it just become a G6 (G8 minus the US and Australia)? In order to "remove" Russia, all seven countries would have to agree to not…

Australia is not in the G8. The G8 is the G7 plus one. G7 agree to roll back is the idea.

You are correct, my apologies. I'm still new to Australia. Australia is hosting the G20, and there is discussion here regarding Russia's role in the upcoming G20 meetings. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/ukrain...

Re: The Ukraine crisis: John Kerry and Nato must calm down and back off

#19

Post by cinskiy »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #7
cinskiy wrote: post #4

I'm Russian, I hate Putin, I support our troops in Crimea, and the article is right that Nato just doesn't want to lose influence right under the Russian border, that's all western hysteria is about. However I think news like this probably should be posted on reddit than here.

I'm curious, what makes you support the invasion? I think it's obvious to everyone that NATO would love to have influence on the Russian border, and that Russia would prefer if that didn't happen, but that doesn't make a military invasion okay. The "Western hysteria," at least what I've seen from over here in the good old US of A, is about the possibility of a significant (which it would be even if nobody else gets i…

I hate monopolies, and currently see US as trying to gain a monopoly on world power, so I want it to have competitors and live in a strong and powerful Russia. But both Russia and China are far behind US for now.

It's kind of like with bitcoin pools, if any pool gets 51% of hashrate, it can do nasty things to everybody. Same with influence, if US gets, say 51% influence in the world, it can be bad for everybody. It's all very simplified here, and my only politics knowledge comes from playing EU and Civilization video games, so that's only how I see it.

I support 'invasion', which is not really an invasion yet, because it consists only of selfies of native population on the background with unmarked Russian(irony, ha-ha) military. Nobody is dead, and I hope, hope, hope it will stay that way.

I see this as a very calculated move to show Crimea they have our support, which they asked for, and nothing more. All hysterical WWIII comments is an overkill.

However if Putin would enter east provinces of Ukraine, like Kharkiv, and it might be tempting to do so, cause they are somewhat pro-Russian too, but much less than the Crimea, it would be insane, and I'll never fight for him, and I'll go to protests and try to overthrow him, because I don't want a war. So that's my biggest concern.

There is one more thing to keep in mind: even if Russia would do nothing, Ukraine may go downward into civil war because they have some nasty social problems now. If it would happen I really don't know what would be the best move for Russia to take. But I think there was enough violence already, and I want only peace.

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