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NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

theguardian.com

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Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#161

Post by Silhouette »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #121
Shivetya wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have permission of government officials then what? We can hold companies accountable but how do you hold government accountable? In a meaningful way? Certainly we can find a myriad of excuses not to fire an government worker for a mistake I am fine with doing the same for this as well. The key is to learn from it and put into place processes that stop it from reoccurring. We need to weigh the penalties to the…

> If they have permission of government officials then what? // They wouldn't - without wilful negligence - accept such "permission" from anyone other than a senior official who had in depth knowledge of the necessary requirements of privacy laws. A person in that permission is unlikely to be acting lawfully and is likely to be aware of that - there's no way they should retain a post with responsibility over anything…

To be fair, there are a few grey areas in the law as it currently stands in the UK that might be relevant if we're arguing about government permission. The main one is probably s251 NHS Act 2006, which grants the Secretary of State for Health certain powers to set aside the default confidentiality rules for specific medical purposes. I'm investigating whether those powers are a relevant factor in this case, but so far I've found no verifiable information either way.

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#162

Post by pja »

pja wrote: post #2

It's worse than that: Ben Goldacre is reporting ( https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/440475049880195073 ) that the data was made publicly available. This is beyond parody.

It transpires that the publicly downloadable data was a mock dataset. How it took them 24 hours to work that out I've no idea, but I imagine there's a lot of headless chicken impressions going on behind the scenes at the moment.

https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/440576479248662528

It's still the case that real NHS data was uploaded to Google's servers.

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#163

Post by raldi »

Silhouette wrote: post #158
raldi wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would leave the data in the hands of medical professionals Presumably, the medical professionals aren't also IT professionals. If they want their data to be on a hard drive, and accessible via a network, using some apps, then some group of non-medical professionals is going to need to maintain those services. Who do you think that should be, and why do you think their systems would be more secure than Google's? >…

Who do you think that should be, and why do you think their systems would be more secure than Google's? The security isn't the only point here. They transferred the data outside of the jurisdiction where our laws apply, and they're not allowed to do that without fulfilling conditions that they appear not to have satisfied. Note that it is not within the power of PA Consulting to vary these conditions, whatever any co…

> I'm openly stating that I think they would do tap those files in a heartbeat if (a) it would help them to earn more from their advertising or other profit-generating activities, and (b) they thought they could get away with it.

Wow. Do you feel that Google has ever done anything so flagrantly over the line before? If so, when?

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#164

Post by thrownaway2424 »

higherpurpose wrote: post #129
swombat wrote: post #5

Surely PA Consulting should immediately be sued out of existence. This kind of behaviour must be considered beyond negligent, practically criminal. I would strongly support throwing anyone involved in this into jail for a long time as a deterrent against future criminals. This is just unbelievable.

And Obama seriously considers letting 3rd parties keeping everyone's private data? No Mr. Obama, neither NSA keeping the data nor 3rd parties is the solution. The solution is to stop spying on everyone .

Who do you think is holding your health records right now?

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#165

Post by Shooti »

dhoulb wrote: post #153
anon1385 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the UK Government (GCHQ) that was breaking into Google's networks.

GCHQ has done some appalling stuff, but the Google network penetration was done by the NSA.

You're both right, its a collaboration between the two:

>For the MUSCULAR project, the GCHQ directs all intake into a “buffer” that can hold three to five days of traffic before recycling storage space. From the buffer, custom-built NSA tools unpack and decode the special data formats that the two companies use inside their clouds. Then the data are sent through a series of filters to “select” information the NSA wants and “defeat” what it does not.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-in...

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#166

Post by lern_too_spel »

pja wrote: post #2

It's worse than that: Ben Goldacre is reporting ( https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/440475049880195073 ) that the data was made publicly available. This is beyond parody.

It's beyond parody because it's just plain false. Par for the course for The Guardian over the last few months.

http://www.earthware.co.uk/default.aspx

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#167

Post by shocks »

bananas wrote: post #79
collyw wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree its the right thing to do, but I have very little faith in it making a difference.

This. Boilerplate reply and a permanent filing in the cylindrical filing cabinet awaits. If you're lucky, they'll use it to lean on whilst writing a cheque to the guy who just installed a duck house in their pond at your expense...

Funny. I've written to several of my local MPs and always received a direct response regarding the issues I have raised.

How many times have you received boilerplate replies?

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#168

Post by Silhouette »

raldi wrote: post #163
Silhouette wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think that should be, and why do you think their systems would be more secure than Google's? The security isn't the only point here. They transferred the data outside of the jurisdiction where our laws apply, and they're not allowed to do that without fulfilling conditions that they appear not to have satisfied. Note that it is not within the power of PA Consulting to vary these conditions, whatever any co…

> I'm openly stating that I think they would do tap those files in a heartbeat if (a) it would help them to earn more from their advertising or other profit-generating activities, and (b) they thought they could get away with it. Wow. Do you feel that Google has ever done anything so flagrantly over the line before? If so, when?

Do you feel that Google has ever done anything so flagrantly over the line before? If so, when?

I'm not sure they've had the chance to do anything this flagrantly over the line, because I'm not aware that they've ever had access to this kind of data before. To be clear, if they didn't know they had this data, I don't think it's fair to blame them for anything anyway. That would clearly be unreasonable. But I think once notified they should be required to delete the data immediately, and I don't trust them as far as I can throw them not to abuse any access they do have if they can come up with enough legal sophistry to convince themselves it's somehow justified.

To answer your original question, for other over-the-line cases relating to privacy specifically, I consider some of the Google Street View practices seriously shady, for example. Not to mention some of the creepy things they have been known to do on just the normal Google web sites, where most people probably assume what they're typing doesn't get sent to Google until they hit search/send/whatever. And of course the whole attempt to unify everything under the banner of Google+ and real names is pretty much second only to Facebook in terms of turning everyone into a database record. Then there's Google Glass.

I'm firmly of the view that technology is neutral, and not inherently good or evil. It is how the technology is used that counts. And in that respect, I think Google have now proven to have evil tendencies many, many times.

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#169

Post by Silhouette »

fixermark wrote: post #142
easyfrag wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Americans get how distrustful other nations are of American-based cloud providers. It is not a matter of Google's or any other providers' behaviour but of the US Government (warrant-less searches and the like). This lack of trust predates the current NSA-Snowden affair and goes back to the Patriot Act (IMHO). Of course I can't speak for all nations or industries (or even companies) but in my part of the…

As an American, I'll be a little surprised if that mistrust runs deeply in Britain, given how closely the Snowden disclosures revealed GCHQ and the NSA to be working. If the NSA had a vested interest in getting health records on a British citizen, I doubt it'd be difficult to get the British government to send them over. You know, to fight terrorism. Of course, people aren't strictly rational actors, so I suppose one…

As an American, I'll be a little surprised if that mistrust runs deeply in Britain

Why? I don't approve of the NSA behaviour, and I don't approve of the GCHQ behaviour in conducting mass surveillance either. The fact that the latter is theoretically done by my government for my country's benefit doesn't make me think any better of the spy agencies or those in government whose laws and tax money allow it.

I would rather take my chances with the terrorists than put up with all the nonsense done in the name of fighting them today. Not only do I think that as a practical matter the nonsense is far more likely to harm me or those I care about, and not only do I strongly disapprove of all the time, money, media attention and other resources I consider wasted on most so-called anti-terror measures when much more deserving causes could have used those resources better, I also think the current culture of rampant paranoia and fear-mongering is helping the terrorists to win anyway.

Re: NHS England patient data 'uploaded to Google servers', Tory MP says

#170

Post by bananas »

shocks wrote: post #167
bananas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Boilerplate reply and a permanent filing in the cylindrical filing cabinet awaits. If you're lucky, they'll use it to lean on whilst writing a cheque to the guy who just installed a duck house in their pond at your expense...

Funny. I've written to several of my local MPs and always received a direct response regarding the issues I have raised. How many times have you received boilerplate replies?

Three times now to three different MPs. Gave up then. Glad you got something more.
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