Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#71

Post by Glyptodon » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 5:45 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #55

Glyptodon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You exaggerate. Mostly it's people who don't do well at their colleges that have trouble. At Ivy Leagues it's fewer people because they have the worst grade inflation and don't accept many borderline students. For state schools there are lots of people at the margin - IE they don't do well enough to really reap a benefit from their degree. Maybe getting good grades at a public won't get you 6 figures in your first jo…

I have a degree from a cow college. I'm very good at what I do. But I'm at a disadvantage: my network doesn't include people who are valuable to know. The dudes who started Dropbox are dudes friends of mine knew in college. People like that aren't in my rolodex. That's what these colleges are for: social entry into that class of mover shaker, be it MIT for tech or an Ivy for politics. This stuff is the difference bet…

I think it's fine to expect teenagers to make decisions.

The real problem is that we enable them with low expectations. Give students high expectations and teach them how to evaluate their options instead of giving them tripe, rule of thumb, and aspiration without realism or planning.

(Also, I do know people who've gotten 4 year degrees and then done things like become correction officers or pharmacy technicians (which don't require degrees).)

That said, there is something to be said for luck. And paying for entry isn't the only way to make connections. It's just the most disgusting, and part of the reason people think certain things resemble giant fraternities.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#72

Post by ahi » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

snowwindwaves wrote: post #34

My father was an economics prof at a Canadian university. In canada a large part of the tuition cost is the actual professors. What the student pays doesn't even cover the professor salaries, the rest is made up by the government. Consider that a tenured prof makes about 120k and teaches only 2 courses per semester, 2 semesters per year, while an undergraduate might have 6 courses per semester and pay 6-10k. My facul…

Outside of a few programs most tenured profs dont make anywhere near 120k. In my area, UMich is 80-100 and 2nd tier schools like Eastern Michigan pay 50-70. Getting a phd in most liberal arts fields does not pay, even if you manage to avoid adjunct hell.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#73

Post by eropple » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 7:28 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #61

eropple wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the "poor people have refrigerators" thinking writ large. Tuition and room and board can easily crack $100k at the schools that are social gatekeepers for the upper class (that people want to go to for that reason).

Time magazine piece on that exact topic - http://healthland.time.com/2012/08/02/are-college-kids-blowi...

"Informal research" is my favorite kind.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#74

Post by res0nat0r » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:37 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #44

aaron-lebo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely right about the relative value of community college, but you pointed out the major problem: community colleges are not thought of highly at all, even though 2 years of CC credited to a bachelor's degree at a more prestigious university counts just the same. I'm not sure how CC's get over the stigma attached to them, but it really needs to happen. They are good value.

Because when there are fewer jobs than candidates, artificial distinctions are used to judge them, and rent seekers exploit that to extract all the economic surplus. This is basic stuff, people. If everyone is going to college, everyone should know this.

I wouldn't call a quality of education difference between MIT and ITT tech artificial.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#75

Post by res0nat0r » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:40 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #49

aaron-lebo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you balance that with giving access to college to individuals who wouldn't have it otherwise? It isn't black and white.

Community college and tuition waivers. This is a solved problem, but needs more funding in some parts of the country.

I wouldn't have wasted my times trying to get my CS degree at a community college. Going to a kore prestigious institution does have advantages.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#76

Post by mikeyouse » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:43 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #49

aaron-lebo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you balance that with giving access to college to individuals who wouldn't have it otherwise? It isn't black and white.

Community college and tuition waivers. This is a solved problem, but needs more funding in some parts of the country.

How are tuition waivers any different than loan guarantees?

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#77

Post by tn13 » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:50 PM UTC

The root of this problem is that the liberals have been paddling relatives good sounding notions such as "everyone needs to go to college" thing and the subsequent government moves to ensure that every tom dick and harry can go to college.

This was about to happen.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#78

Post by magicalist » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:55 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #56

This is an interesting NPR Planet Money podcast where they try to break down why Duke's tuition costs $60,000/yr (and Duke claims that the actual cost of a student is really $90,000/yr). http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/02/26/283018555/episode-... One of the most interesting points is that colleges are in a unique inverted position when it comes to price vs. demand. Cutting their tuition price would actually decre…

> Cutting their tuition price would actually decrease the perceived value of the degree, and thus lower the demand for their product.

Even if you accept this as true (which is interesting but is also a bit of a stretch), it certainly doesn't explain why tuition consistently rises at a rate several times that of inflation. The latter items certainly do.

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#79

Post by coderintherye » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:59 PM UTC

patmcguire wrote: post #21

It's not the interest, it's the principal. And I don't understand how the principal got so high. Is calculus ten times more expensive to teach than it was thirty years ago? Is Shakespeare? Supply is totally inelastic, because it's almost impossible to get a new college accredited (for profit schools all started with an already accredited school and expand them). Same with demand - not having a college degree puts you…

Sort of, it's a bit more complex than that. Tuition costs and textbook costs have skyrocketed (see http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/23/charts-just-h... ) while faculty salaries have stagnated or even gone down in real terms ( http://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/C2BAFA70-057E-4097-908B-6E4... )

Empire-building is correct though in the sense that public institutions are the ones raising their tuition costs by so much (78%!), and a big reason for this is do to college's building new infrastructure, which often times they have no need for. Take SF State University who I used to work for, they built a brand new gymnasium and a brand-new library at a cost of over a billion dollars for a student population in which 78% are commuter students who hold down part-time jobs and spend no time on campus. It just doesn't make financial sense. That said, faculty costs are still the primary problem and why community colleges get the taxpayer a much better bang for the buck. See http://www2.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/hiedfuture/reports/dic...

Re: Student Loans Are A Drag On The Economy

#80

Post by bakhy » Sat, Mar 01, 2014, 8:59 PM UTC

whenever something starts to get paid by loans, the prices rise. fractional reserve banking means loans are created almost out of thin air, it's the fiatest of fiat money, and it creates a push to increase prices. banks constantly need a sure thing, something to actually create the value to back that money. and when they all start jumping on a bandwagon, the wheels eventually break. i hope something will be done here, but if recent history has taught us anything, US government will pay most of the bills, saving the banks, and then be heavily attacked for - being in debt! the economic scene today is a bad joke.