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Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

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Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#101
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't decide if I want to respond to this by pointing out that it is argumentum ad populum or as an ad hominem (poisoning the well) argument. Hmmm, after much consideration, gonna go with ad hominem.

What's your point? Incidentally, what logical arguments would you recommend one use against people who have rejected science as a legitimate world view?

I think you have a couple of problems.

1) You're obviously a troll with a 20 hour old account, so you feel like you need to get trolling early today.

2) You assume that people who disagree with you on some topic have "rejected science as a legitimate world view". You should try to reexamine this assumption, as you may find out it's invalid.

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pfft, the extra mile. Transporting your goods around the world on coal burning ships does not an environmentalist make.

The only large commercial ships left that I am aware of that are still coal burning, transport coal. Very few ports are equipped to refuel coal.

my mistake, I thought bunker fuel was a coal derivative

6 years ago 90,000 were running on bunker fuel

http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

370 million tonnes of it get burned every year and the price is rising

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-11/ship-fuel-prices...

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#103
So let me get this straight:

Conservative group buys stock in Apple. During shareholder meeting asks CEO to report detailed and accurate figures regarding sustainability costs.

CEO goes off on a bit of a restrained tear, telling the group if they don't like Apple's sustainability policies they should get out of the stock.

So, since Apple fans have long been the left-leaning, creative, wine and croissant crowd, was this a paid publicity stunt? Or just simple happenstance? This kind of story is like giving away free candy. People can argue the politics of it, people can talk about the role of profit in corporate governance, people can argue about climate science. Coverage of the story just goes on and on.

Seriously, you couldn't ask for a better PR platform. I'm pretty damn close to calling bullshit on this entire story.

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The think tank is pushing somebody's agenda, and even though the think tank as an organization isn't profiting, I'm sure the officers are doing quite well for themselves.

Isn't a think tank basically the same as lobbyists, e.g. legalized corruption? Think tanks push an agenda, which creates laws beneficial to the business interests of the think tank's backers, which creates $Bns in profits. In that view, think tanks are probably the most profitable business there is. Certainly the highest ROI when it works out. Politics can be bought for hundreds of thousands, but bring in billions.

I work at a think tank, and no, this is not what think tanks are. (Not most, anyway.)

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The think tank is pushing somebody's agenda, and even though the think tank as an organization isn't profiting, I'm sure the officers are doing quite well for themselves.

Isn't a think tank basically the same as lobbyists, e.g. legalized corruption? Think tanks push an agenda, which creates laws beneficial to the business interests of the think tank's backers, which creates $Bns in profits. In that view, think tanks are probably the most profitable business there is. Certainly the highest ROI when it works out. Politics can be bought for hundreds of thousands, but bring in billions.

No. In the US, many (most?) think tanks are 501(c)(3) nonprofits -- NCPPR included -- and cannot make lobbying a primary activity [1]

More broadly, think tanks are groups of like-minded people expressing their opinions, typically about how governments should be run. The fact that they accept donations in order to be able to work full time on the cause and to extend the reach of their advocacy, and that many of those donations come from individuals or organizations who stand to benefit if some of the think tank's desired policies are implemented, does not make them "legalized corruption".

[1] http://www.irs.gov/Charities-%26-Non-Profits/Lobbying

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#106
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but that article neglects any mention of court opinions (many of which I have read, as has any law student) which interpret the law and say otherwise.

Lynn Stout, a Cornell Corporate Law Professor, seems to disagree with you: http://www.amazon.com/Shareholder-Value-Myth-Shareholders-Co...

Having never heard of Lynn Stout, her claim to fame on Wikipedia is that Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens cited her work in Citizens United v Federal Exchange Commission... in the dissent.

I could believe that oxygen doesn't exist, and I could probably find somebody else to agree with that, perhaps even an author or something, but if there exists a body of law that is on the books and that will punish you for violating it, the idea of shareholder primacy is very much not a myth.

Dodge v. Ford 1953: > The Court held that a business corporation is organized primarily for the profit > of the stockholders, as opposed to the community or its employees. The discretion > of the directors is to be exercised in the choice of means to attain that end, and > does not extend to the reduction of profits or the nondistribution of profits among > stockholders in order to benefit the public, making the profits of the stockholders > incidental thereto.

This all extends on precedent set way back in 1896 (though there may be earlier) in Steinway v Steinway & Sons, though in the case of Steinway, the philanthropic behavior was excused as having had pecuniary value. It's been cited since, and punishments are being levied in spite of the myth. While it may be true that there is no law codified to speak expressly on the duties of shareholder primacy, stare decisis specifically disagrees with that, and that's really all that matters.

In the real world, of course there is no duty to maximize value at all costs, and the board elects a CEO who will do a good job of balancing short-term value against long-term value, and while actions such as Cook's are likely debatable either way, if we took a more extreme example, and Cook were to give 80% of Apple's assets away to charity, he would very certainly be sued, and he would very certainly lose. If, as in Steinway, the charitable actions could be argued to lead to longer term profits, the case gets blurrier, but the idea that shareholder primacy is a myth that does not exist is simply too unqualified a statement, and too counter to the facts to be regarded with much weight.

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The think tank is pushing somebody's agenda, and even though the think tank as an organization isn't profiting, I'm sure the officers are doing quite well for themselves.

Isn't a think tank basically the same as lobbyists, e.g. legalized corruption? Think tanks push an agenda, which creates laws beneficial to the business interests of the think tank's backers, which creates $Bns in profits. In that view, think tanks are probably the most profitable business there is. Certainly the highest ROI when it works out. Politics can be bought for hundreds of thousands, but bring in billions.

Think tanks are better than lobbyists, because they let interests launder their money. X, who has an interest in Y, can make a donation to e.g. Heritage, which will then spit out PR in support of Y. But that usually comes across as "Heritage supports Y" and "X donates to Heritage," not a single fact that "X supports Y." And since Heritage flacks for hundreds of Ys, X has plausible deniability.

And if you want to see the amazing ROI available through corruption, take a look at Duke Cunningham's bribe menu.

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#108

So let me get this straight: Conservative group buys stock in Apple. During shareholder meeting asks CEO to report detailed and accurate figures regarding sustainability costs. CEO goes off on a bit of a restrained tear, telling the group if they don't like Apple's sustainability policies they should get out of the stock. So, since Apple fans have long been the left-leaning, creative, wine and croissant crowd, was th…

It's pretty unlikely that the NCPPR would be willing to help Apple with a pro-environmental PR stunt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Public_Poli...

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only large commercial ships left that I am aware of that are still coal burning, transport coal. Very few ports are equipped to refuel coal.

my mistake, I thought bunker fuel was a coal derivative 6 years ago 90,000 were running on bunker fuel http://www.gizmag.com/shipping-pollution/11526/ 370 million tonnes of it get burned every year and the price is rising http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-11/ship-fuel-prices...

Given the cost of fuel is rising, these guys will hopefully benefit. http://www.skysails.info/english/skysails-marine/skysails-pr...

Re: Tim Cook Rejects Politics of the NCPPR

#110
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a rathole to avoid if you can. It may sound dismissive, but these guys are cranks, and their time in the spotlight is rightly to be minimized. 97%+ of shareholders understand that Apple goes the extra mile in sustainability and agrees with that approach.

Pfft, the extra mile. Transporting your goods around the world on coal burning ships does not an environmentalist make.

Is shipping really a significant part of the environmental impact of making electronics in China and selling them in the US? Shipping is way more efficient per mile than most other forms of transport, and IIUC much of the environmental impact of devices comes from disposing of them and the toxic chemicals they contain.
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