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We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

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Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#271

Post by keppy »

seizethecheese wrote: post #201
pmichaud wrote: post #179

There are definitely amazing, luxurious aspects of programming. Something came into view for me recently though, that I never realized before: When I graduated from high school, I started my own little (tutoring) company, and did software from after that, so I never had the experience of a "normal", hourly job, like retail or coal mining or whatever. Recently I had an opportunity to do a job like that and the mood st…

Hmm, so you took one job and feel like that is enough of a basis for making conclusions? - Have you tried being a commercial dishwasher? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, yet highly demanding work attention-wise. $9/hr. - Have you been a line cook? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, physical work plus a pretty painful burn at least once a day. $10/hr. Okay, fine I take your point that program…

I worked as a dish washer and then line cook for several years. It is true, that is way 'harder' work than programming. It was actually money (or, lack of money) and a work related injury that made me make myself a hirable coder. It's hard to say if my world view changed or if it's normal for people who do this work to become this way, but that first year was so hard that it fucked with me. Brain is different. I guess the trade off is ok though so it's cool ( not poor, homeless, in prison, or hungry :D ).

Oh and by the way, if you think working 8 hours a day as a cook or dishwasher is a lot LOL don't move anywhere where there is any job competition at all you will be instantly fired.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#272

Post by nsxwolf »

djb_hackernews wrote: post #241
nsxwolf wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can certainly do this in Chicago. Especially if you're flexible on the commute time and can handle an hour on the train. The suburbs also have developer jobs.

That's true anywhere right? But we shouldn't have to be flexible with an hour commute on a train while at the same time being told we live a life of luxury and are over paid. It appears to me the cognitive dissonance going on here similar to the SF people who say "It's not so bad, I found a studio for 2k/month in Oakland!" If we were truly overpaid and in such demand we wouldn't live in crappy studios or be priced ou…

I'm scratching my head a bit that anyone would balk at an hour long train ride. I did it for years. You can read, work on a some project, or just relax.

I guess it's a Chicago thing.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#273

Post by DanBC »

2arrs2ells wrote: post #270
pmichaud wrote: post #179

There are definitely amazing, luxurious aspects of programming. Something came into view for me recently though, that I never realized before: When I graduated from high school, I started my own little (tutoring) company, and did software from after that, so I never had the experience of a "normal", hourly job, like retail or coal mining or whatever. Recently I had an opportunity to do a job like that and the mood st…

"Think of a gas station attendant sitting around watching TV most of the day, the night audit at the hotel, or the guy flipping burgers when it's not lunch time." I've been thinking about this a bit lately... What can we build to help people make the most of these spare cycles? Duolingo is perfect for this. What else could people produce/learn in spare time on their phone?

There are a million things they could do. Gamify things and help science - http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23635094

Or set up a course and learn math etc.

Sadly, many bosses don't want this. They want a body at work and to look like they're working even if there's nothing to do.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#274

Post by auctiontheory »

throwaway812 wrote: post #30
Touche wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. We enrich "business guys" with connections to billion dollar exits while we ourselves make middle-class or slightly upper-middle class wages. Meanwhile anyone willing to take out the loans to put themselves through Dental school will eventually make more than we do and if they have the motivation to open up their own practice, much more than we do.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think your facts are a bit off and reflect HN insularity. The median 33% household income ("middle class") in the US is $30,000 to $62,500 ( household ). Even if you are the sole earner in your household, it is still unlikely that you make less than $62,500. If you do make less than that, ask for a raise. If you don't make less than that, or your combined household income is more tha…

Despite the name, "middle class" does not mean "around median income." This is more apparent in countries like India and Brazil, but it's increasingly true in the US. "Upper class" definitely does not mean "top third by income."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#275

Post by auctiontheory »

rjknight wrote: post #39
yitchelle wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure if you are trolling or not. Maybe I have read your comment incorrectly. There are some people in this world that are working in their job because of circumstances beyond their control. Just look at the folks in North Korea or most parts of Africa. Those of us who have "luxurious" jobs did have a choice, those other folks don't.

I'm not trolling. I'm saying that software developer lifestyles only look good because of the terribly poor conditions many other people work in, both in developed economies and in more obviously poverty-stricken places. We're lucky not to be those people, but to me "luxury" implies either greed or wastefulness - that as software developers we're getting some kind of unreasonably good deal from the world. I don't thi…

> we should consider modestly affluent lifestyles to be the norm

That is a very interesting statement. I wish I could agree with you, but neither history nor the current state of the world support the idea that affluence is "normal."

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#276

Post by refurb »

coolsunglasses wrote: post #66
throwaway812 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think your facts are a bit off and reflect HN insularity. The median 33% household income ("middle class") in the US is $30,000 to $62,500 ( household ). Even if you are the sole earner in your household, it is still unlikely that you make less than $62,500. If you do make less than that, ask for a raise. If you don't make less than that, or your combined household income is more tha…

This is highly location dependent and programmers are often located in expensive cities. 100k in the bay area is just middle class, no upper qualification. Very unlikely to afford a home within 25 minutes of work unless they're in the south bay. You need 200k total household income before a mortgage on a $1.3mm house (starter home cost in most neighborhoods) is realistic. There is a 10x difference in the cost of a ho…

$1.3MM will get you a VERY nice home in some of the more exclusive neighborhoods in SF (Noe Valley).

Only in SF do you have people complaining that they are "middle class" because they can't afford a single family home (already a luxury in major US cities) in a ritzy neighborhood and have to suffer through a >25 min commute.

Houses in SF on the edge of the ritzy neighborhoods cost $700k. But that's not living the american dream right

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#277

Post by EpicEng »

allochthon wrote: post #46
throwaway812 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, but I think your facts are a bit off and reflect HN insularity. The median 33% household income ("middle class") in the US is $30,000 to $62,500 ( household ). Even if you are the sole earner in your household, it is still unlikely that you make less than $62,500. If you do make less than that, ask for a raise. If you don't make less than that, or your combined household income is more tha…

By any reasonable definition, being well-off means being able to take out a mortgage on a house, afford occasional vacations to other parts of the world, invest in the stock market, support a family, put your kids through college, give to different charities, save for retirement, all in addition to helping family members in need, which one would do under any circumstances. A software developer might be able to do the…

I live in San Diego. I don't make any more than your average programmer around here (very low six figures.) I can do all of those things, and in a nice area.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#278

Post by kamaal »

seizethecheese wrote: post #201
pmichaud wrote: post #179

There are definitely amazing, luxurious aspects of programming. Something came into view for me recently though, that I never realized before: When I graduated from high school, I started my own little (tutoring) company, and did software from after that, so I never had the experience of a "normal", hourly job, like retail or coal mining or whatever. Recently I had an opportunity to do a job like that and the mood st…

Hmm, so you took one job and feel like that is enough of a basis for making conclusions? - Have you tried being a commercial dishwasher? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, yet highly demanding work attention-wise. $9/hr. - Have you been a line cook? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, physical work plus a pretty painful burn at least once a day. $10/hr. Okay, fine I take your point that program…

The concept of 'works X hours on job Y so deserves Z' is totally bogus. You have to reveal how much Y is in demand, what kind of risks are involved and what kind of predictability exists in in the results doing Y.

An accountant working 70 hrs a week at $20/hr will take $1400 a week. A start up guy will take $0 if it things go sour. That is the difference. Do you wish to settle for $1400/week without risks or take a risk and make $100 million working 3-4 years? Note if things go bad for the entrepreneur(and that's the most common case) the accountant is still significantly richer than the start up guy.

If you look at it that, way the accountant is having it way easier than the start up guy. A lot of predictability in results, measurable productivity, guaranteed pay etc.

Apply that definition and you see why programming is actually "coal mine of its own sort".

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#279

Post by PhasmaFelis »

kamaal wrote: post #278
seizethecheese wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, so you took one job and feel like that is enough of a basis for making conclusions? - Have you tried being a commercial dishwasher? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, yet highly demanding work attention-wise. $9/hr. - Have you been a line cook? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, physical work plus a pretty painful burn at least once a day. $10/hr. Okay, fine I take your point that program…

The concept of 'works X hours on job Y so deserves Z' is totally bogus. You have to reveal how much Y is in demand, what kind of risks are involved and what kind of predictability exists in in the results doing Y. An accountant working 70 hrs a week at $20/hr will take $1400 a week. A start up guy will take $0 if it things go sour. That is the difference. Do you wish to settle for $1400/week without risks or take a r…

You're confusing "start-up programming" with "programming," I probably that seems to be endemic on Hacker News.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#280

Post by vitd »

spindritf wrote: post #5

Yes, working from home is great. It is a luxury. Working at your own pace is also nice. But working "on the Internet" means you're also comparing yourself to the best, brightest, and driven. Then it seems like you're achieving maybe 10% of what you seemingly could be, because you're setting your own goals based on what you see out there. It's like getting stuck in traffic. You can point out that I'm sitting in climat…

>But working "on the Internet" means you're also comparing yourself to the best, brightest, and driven.

This reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. My spouse and I bought a condo in a very expensive area of a big city. We realized we were very lucky to have stock options that were worth real money to sell and pay for a downpayment on the place. I felt a little like we were "cheaters" or "fakers" because the other people in the building seemed so successful. It felt like we hadn't "earned" the money since it was pretty much luck getting the options at the right time.

The guy above us in his 50s had his own business - some lighting stores or something. The lady next to us was about our age (late 30's at the time) and was an event planner and had done the work for some famous awards show recently. The couple below us were retired, and the husband had been a highly-paid salesman. etc.

A few months in, we learn that the guy above us doesn't actually own his condo. It's owned by a trust set up by his family. The lady next door co-owns it with her father who paid for most it. The couple downstairs actually did own theirs the "normal" way, but they seemed like the only ones in the building. It was really eye-opening. We were no less successful or lucky than the other people in the building. Most of them had "cheated" in some way, too, and comparing ourselves to them in that way was pointless. Did I work any less hard than the lighting guy or the event planner? Hell no! Did they "earn" their condos any more than me? Not at all. They were no more or less successful than us or anyone else in the building, it just looked that way at first.

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