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We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

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Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#241

Post by djb_hackernews »

nsxwolf wrote: post #221
djb_hackernews wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software developer with several years in Boston and DC each, I can tell you 100k does not allow for a mortgage on a SFH within a 20 minute commute to work in either place, which is basically the american dream. Boston is even worse, the available real estate is all older and smaller and nearly as expensive as SF. I'd say feature for feature your money probably goes further in SF than in Boston.

You can certainly do this in Chicago. Especially if you're flexible on the commute time and can handle an hour on the train. The suburbs also have developer jobs.

That's true anywhere right?

But we shouldn't have to be flexible with an hour commute on a train while at the same time being told we live a life of luxury and are over paid. It appears to me the cognitive dissonance going on here similar to the SF people who say "It's not so bad, I found a studio for 2k/month in Oakland!"

If we were truly overpaid and in such demand we wouldn't live in crappy studios or be priced out of the neighborhoods we work in.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#242

Post by gd1 »

biafra wrote: post #69
samstave wrote: post #19

No, I am keenly, almost obsessively aware of how lucky I am and how fragile my situation can be. I have three kids, a stay at home wife, make a considerable salary and have a job I absolutely love and excel at. But I am still fundamentally subsisting; my living expenses are just covered by what I make and am not able to save a considerable amount. This scares the bejesus out of me because all my kids are young: I hav…

Why does your wife not work? Lack of daycare in your area? Lack of work opportunities for her in your area?

She does work. She has three children to raise.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#243

Post by benched »

jtoeman wrote: post #239
benched wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely yes. I always have to be really polite to my friends who don't have technical jobs. Programmers have to offer up complicated things , that have to hold up when tested. A lot of jobs are mostly talking, or moving things around, or just whatever. Look at family physicians. I've seen them just look up stuff on Wikipedia on their netbooks, that everybody sort of knows anyway. Anything more demanding, they writ…

FWIW those people "talking" or "whatever" are quite likely creating some of the business opportunities for your code to sit in and make you the money. The number of times when coding=(lots of)money without some of the "whatever" involved is fairly rare.

I'm just saying, few jobs have analogs to "accountability to logic", "accountability to the compiler", "accountability to the unit tests" and so on. Surgeons have it. Engineers have it. Even people who do sales have it. But you know there are a lot of service, middle-management, and executive jobs where no rubber meeting road really occurs.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#244

Post by gaius »

cmiles74 wrote: post #145
cwaniak wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

97% of people want to work. Like to code. That's what they want to do. And they expect the other 3% to organize these jobs for them. Because they don't know/can't/aren't interested in organizing these jobs on their own. It really boils down to: do you want to be a craftsman or wealthy man. Because if you want to be in the 3% organizing jobs for others, you won't have any time to do coding. It's very easy to end up in…

And without the 97% of people doing the actual work, the "organizer" wouldn't have a job either. Sure, presently management is making a grossly disproportionate amount of the profit but that doesn't make it right. This lack of balance is one of the looming economic crises facing the US. Your blithe comment implies that this is reasonable, I strongly disagree.

It's about making the trade with your eyes open. I am a "just wants to code" type, which is fine, because in the organization we have guys who just want to sell, and guys who just want to make presentations, and guys (presumably) who just want to do the squillion other tasks that make a large organization tick over. I don't feel exploited at all.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#245

Post by tapostrophemo »

aidenn0 wrote: post #108
samstave wrote: post #19

No, I am keenly, almost obsessively aware of how lucky I am and how fragile my situation can be. I have three kids, a stay at home wife, make a considerable salary and have a job I absolutely love and excel at. But I am still fundamentally subsisting; my living expenses are just covered by what I make and am not able to save a considerable amount. This scares the bejesus out of me because all my kids are young: I hav…

I have three kids as well, and have some small hope to offer (assuming your kids are young): once the kids are at elementary school age, the financial situation gets a bit easier. After school activities typically cost less than preschool, and your wife may be able to get part-time work at that point. Also note: with 3 kids, there is likely no place in the US where it is cheaper to send your kids to a mediocre privat…

"...cheaper...to just move to a better school district..."

Unless, of course, you're stuck underwater in a house that you'd lose lots of money on if you sold it.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#246

Post by dasil003 »

coldtea wrote: post #211
nostrademons wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage you to set up shop as an entrepreneur, consultant, or ISV. Then you will a.) get to keep all of the wealth you create (well, minus taxes - damn you Uncle Sam) and b.) get a true idea of how much wealth you actually create. Personally, I've done both the entrepreneur and employee route, and I created and kept a whole lot more money as an employee. I may go back to being an entrepreneur in the future - I'…

> I'd encourage you to set up shop as an entrepreneur, consultant, or ISV. Then you will a.) get to keep all of the wealth you create (well, minus taxes - damn you Uncle Sam) and b.) get a true idea of how much wealth you actually create. Or you know, you'll get an inflated idea of how much you "actually" created, just because you get to tell people what to do, and belittle their contributions because, after all you…

When I start my own company I will definitely take credit for the business I build. For the past 15 years I have been paid to build things for other people, I have been praised and I have been well paid, but I certainly don't claim credit for the creation of the companies that employed me. Even as a co-founder in my current position, there is a huge difference between coming on in a paid position and taking the risk to build something from nothing.

Developers sometimes get big heads because there is so much dead weight in the corporate world pulling paychecks for bullshit. I get that we build stuff that creates real tangible value. But just as people sometimes misunderstand the challenge of our work and the value that we bring to the table, it's easy to dismiss business-oriented entrepreneurs as just being privileged or having inside connections—all of which may be true, but until you have the stones to go put everything on the line and found your own company you don't have a leg to stand in terms of proclaiming who is bringing what value. Without the founder, nothing happens, period.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#247

Post by FLUX-YOU »

clusterfoo wrote: post #78
rjknight wrote: post #12

No, we do not have luxurious jobs. Other people have really really shitty jobs. Software developers are just getting the kind of relative pay and conditions improvements that a much larger number of people took for granted in the 60s and 70s. It's everyone else who is fucked.

The fact that we have careers decent enough that we are not dehumanized on a daily basis or expected to work in depressing, unhealthy, sometimes dangerous conditions for just enough pay to scrape by should not be seen as luxury; it should be the norm. And considering the value developers bring to companies, and comparing our salaries to other positions, developers in general are underpaid. It's perfectly reasonable t…

Everyone's underpaid because employers need to make a profit on you. If you bring a million in sales, and turn around and demand a million, then the company hasn't made anything. How much profit a company should be making on its developers is a different story.

And really, not all developers are mentally taxed for 8 hours a day. Some might do routine tasks for 2 or hours and then browse HN for the remaining 6, or just go right home. The labor market for developers is no where near efficient in this regard.

But really, if a high salary and benefits and perks aren't a luxury job, then what is a luxury job exactly?

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#249

Post by Iftheshoefits »

ForHackernews wrote: post #80
allochthon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By any reasonable definition, being well-off means being able to take out a mortgage on a house, afford occasional vacations to other parts of the world, invest in the stock market, support a family, put your kids through college, give to different charities, save for retirement, all in addition to helping family members in need, which one would do under any circumstances. A software developer might be able to do the…

Hint: Don't live in California. There are plenty of well-paid software jobs in places like Boston, Chicago, Northern Virginia, Atlanta, Florida, Austin, etc. They might not have the glut of "hot" startups that Silicon Valley does, but they have much more reasonable cost of living.

I've lived and worked in two places you mention (Florida, Chicago, although very briefly in the latter).

There are "well-paid" software jobs there, if one adheres strictly to a comparison of salaries with the median. However the quantity of software jobs is lower, the type of software job is generally slanted toward the "crappy" end of the spectrum (software developers are an expense, and therefore to be treated as enemies to the mission of the company), and the pay is just not even in the same ballpark as the Bay area, even if it is (relatively) good.

Then there are other factors, such as quality of life, public services and other things that make it easier or even pleasant to raise a family. In Florida all these things, in my opinion, are seriously lacking or underwhelming. Coupled with the high level of job insecurity there, I didn't have to think too long or hard to decide to move my family from there to the Bay area.

Re: We Have Luxurious Jobs but We Are Not Aware of It

#250

Post by prawn »

seizethecheese wrote: post #201
pmichaud wrote: post #179

There are definitely amazing, luxurious aspects of programming. Something came into view for me recently though, that I never realized before: When I graduated from high school, I started my own little (tutoring) company, and did software from after that, so I never had the experience of a "normal", hourly job, like retail or coal mining or whatever. Recently I had an opportunity to do a job like that and the mood st…

Hmm, so you took one job and feel like that is enough of a basis for making conclusions? - Have you tried being a commercial dishwasher? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, yet highly demanding work attention-wise. $9/hr. - Have you been a line cook? I have. That's 8 straight hours of monotonous, physical work plus a pretty painful burn at least once a day. $10/hr. Okay, fine I take your point that program…

I think you're contrasting hourly payments for a freelancer (unless OP is getting $100/hr for 40 hours/week, 48 weeks/year) and the accountant getting paid regardless of workload in a full-time role. And in a very particular environment (overworked, etc).

A freelancer, especially if they're working out of a shared office space, has overheads - rent, utilities, etc. What I bill and what I take home are very different, and even more so for my employee.

A couple of those jobs you listed would have the employees heading home and free to unwind. I run a small business and I am never free of it. The calls and the emails and the pressure and the queue of issues never stops. I envy those that go home and can throw away an evening watching a movie or TV guilt-free.

At one point while travelling, I worked as a barman in the UK earning under $10/hr. I could do one hour of freelance work in the morning and make more then than in the 10-12 hour shift I did that afternoon. But I had never been a barman before, had about 10 minutes of training before I started, and didn't really do anything particularly taxing. It was draining being on your feet all day, but it was very simple work. Almost anyone could do it and thus the wage on offer was low.

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