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Vienna again named world's most liveable city

reuters.com

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Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#111

Post by fit2rule »

stewbrew wrote: post #95
fit2rule wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of those here, but no. I'm Australian. I think Vienna is monstrous.

So that's why you were surprised about the kangaroo. Anyway, do you think other European capitals like Berlin or Paris are any less "monstrous"?

No, I don't think they're less monstrous - the fact is that mass populations living so closely together, in architecture that does not motivate their interaction as a neighborhood, is a real problem. There are endless rows of these city-apartment buildings, built to maximize space and landlord profit, which simply puts people into boxes and discourages interaction. Europe is full of these cities. So maybe that is why Vienna - where its entirely unfashionable to despise the city for its physical oppressions - gets the accolades every year.

Berlin, at least, makes an effort to build community in the neighborhood and of course Paris has centuries of history with precisely this notion in its street courses; Vienna has always been an imperial place, and it shows. The impersonality of the architecture seems to have been long-since inherited. They even re-built it this way, after the War .. so I believe in fact the "Concrete Jungle", "City-As-Machine" thing is so strong here, that its just not noticed any more ..

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#112

Post by [deleted] »

stewbrew wrote: post #48
4ad wrote: post #11

I live in Vienna and I see these surveys all the time. I moved in Vienna 2.5 years ago. Vienna is a good place to live (otherwise I would have left) provided you don't care about things that are simply not available, for example no real IT sector, no startup scene etc. It's okay, but it's nothing spectacular. I don't understand what these people find so fascinating about the city. My friends share my opinion too. I g…

In addition to what was said below/above, there also are a few relevant meetup groups.

[deleted]

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#113

Post by davmre »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #109
davmre wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two major subsidies for cars are gas (which should cost several times its current US price) and parking (which is often provided free by businesses using otherwise-valuable real estate). Neither of those subsidies really apply to public transit, even buses, though transit does receive relatively minor subsidies of its own. > Until the externalities are internalized, though, there's no need to go on an anti-suburb…

1. Parking provided by businesses is not free. It's already internalized. Only free city parking is not internalized. 2. You show only that the governments are failing to internalize these costs. Don't punish the users: punish the governments. They're the ones in the wrong.

1. Free parking at businesses, housing developments, even single-family homes is quite often mandated by regulation. In many cities, if you build a new apartment building, shopping mall, etc., you're required by law to also construct a proportional quantity of parking, even if that goes against your judgement as to the best use of space and resources. See http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/business/economy/15view.ht... and http://www.amazon.com/The-High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/18848299....

2. No one's calling for the guillotine for all car owners (that would include me!). But democratic governments are a function of their citizens. If externalities are not being internalized, it's because there is some powerful faction -- drivers, in this case -- that benefits from the status quo. Yes, the US govt is dysfunctional, but go ahead and try surveying the US public about a carbon tax that would raise gas to $10/gallon. It's not just some abstract 'government' that favors subsidies here -- it's pretty much the entire citizenry.

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#114

Post by stewbrew »

fit2rule wrote: post #111
stewbrew wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's why you were surprised about the kangaroo. Anyway, do you think other European capitals like Berlin or Paris are any less "monstrous"?

No, I don't think they're less monstrous - the fact is that mass populations living so closely together, in architecture that does not motivate their interaction as a neighborhood, is a real problem. There are endless rows of these city-apartment buildings, built to maximize space and landlord profit, which simply puts people into boxes and discourages interaction. Europe is full of these cities. So maybe that is why…

Actually, the quality of living in one of those city-apartment buildings can be quite good. Other than in many other big cities, there are no pure commuter cities in Vienna (every district also has some old village infrastructure at its core) and the level of social segregation is rather low. It sounds to me as if you were rather dissatisfied with your apartment. Maybe you should consider moving to a different part of Vienna.

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#115

Post by fit2rule »

stewbrew wrote: post #114
fit2rule wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think they're less monstrous - the fact is that mass populations living so closely together, in architecture that does not motivate their interaction as a neighborhood, is a real problem. There are endless rows of these city-apartment buildings, built to maximize space and landlord profit, which simply puts people into boxes and discourages interaction. Europe is full of these cities. So maybe that is why…

Actually, the quality of living in one of those city-apartment buildings can be quite good. Other than in many other big cities, there are no pure commuter cities in Vienna (every district also has some old village infrastructure at its core) and the level of social segregation is rather low. It sounds to me as if you were rather dissatisfied with your apartment. Maybe you should consider moving to a different part o…

There are very few parts of Vienna that do not feature as a concrete jungle in my mind. Part of the problem is that Viennese citizens just don't know any different; they think that because they've got heating and access to the S-Bahn, that's all they need.

Sorry, but no: a bit of blue sky would also be nice. Neighborhood retreats that are not commercially driven would be great. Destruction of every 5th apartment building to make a community space would be fabulous.

But it seems the Viennese cannot even deal with turning a shopping district into walking streets without wanting to cannibalize each other. The problem with Vienna is that it promotes dissent between neighbourhoods; even the preposterously named Districts manifest this fact. The Viennese have segregation, isolation, and discrimination built into their city as architectural forms; without some dynamite, there isn't so much hope to change the condition, alas.

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#116

Post by stewbrew »

fit2rule wrote: post #115
stewbrew wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the quality of living in one of those city-apartment buildings can be quite good. Other than in many other big cities, there are no pure commuter cities in Vienna (every district also has some old village infrastructure at its core) and the level of social segregation is rather low. It sounds to me as if you were rather dissatisfied with your apartment. Maybe you should consider moving to a different part o…

There are very few parts of Vienna that do not feature as a concrete jungle in my mind. Part of the problem is that Viennese citizens just don't know any different; they think that because they've got heating and access to the S-Bahn, that's all they need. Sorry, but no: a bit of blue sky would also be nice. Neighborhood retreats that are not commercially driven would be great. Destruction of every 5th apartment buil…

What about the Donauinsel, the Prater, the Lainzer Tiergarten, the Wienerwald, and all those smaller parks scattered around the city? I don't think have had much time yet to learn to know Vienna.

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#117

Post by fit2rule »

stewbrew wrote: post #116
fit2rule wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are very few parts of Vienna that do not feature as a concrete jungle in my mind. Part of the problem is that Viennese citizens just don't know any different; they think that because they've got heating and access to the S-Bahn, that's all they need. Sorry, but no: a bit of blue sky would also be nice. Neighborhood retreats that are not commercially driven would be great. Destruction of every 5th apartment buil…

What about the Donauinsel, the Prater, the Lainzer Tiergarten, the Wienerwald, and all those smaller parks scattered around the city? I don't think have had much time yet to learn to know Vienna.

I know those parks quite well, and have been here quite long enough to have formed this opinion (>5 years). These parks are wonderful - but they are not within the city limits, and require the use of transportation systems to get to them.

They are great places - no question about that - but the city itself remains monstrous to live in even if you are able to spend a few hours in any of those parks when you can.. Wienerwald is not in the city limits, Donauinsel - just barely - Lainzer Tiergarten also on the periphery. Prater is within the city limits, but this has to be one of the least interesting 'natural spaces' ever created..

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#118

Post by stewbrew »

fit2rule wrote: post #117
stewbrew wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the Donauinsel, the Prater, the Lainzer Tiergarten, the Wienerwald, and all those smaller parks scattered around the city? I don't think have had much time yet to learn to know Vienna.

I know those parks quite well, and have been here quite long enough to have formed this opinion (>5 years). These parks are wonderful - but they are not within the city limits, and require the use of transportation systems to get to them. They are great places - no question about that - but the city itself remains monstrous to live in even if you are able to spend a few hours in any of those parks when you can.. Wien…

I don't know which century your Vienna map is from, but the Wienerwald, the Donauinsel etc. are all within city limits. As I said before, maybe you should considering moving to another district. It took me, erm, 15 years to move beyond the Gürtel -- i.e. closer to the above places. Today I'm asking myself what took me so long.

Re: Vienna again named world's most liveable city

#119

Post by fit2rule »

stewbrew wrote: post #118
fit2rule wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know those parks quite well, and have been here quite long enough to have formed this opinion (>5 years). These parks are wonderful - but they are not within the city limits, and require the use of transportation systems to get to them. They are great places - no question about that - but the city itself remains monstrous to live in even if you are able to spend a few hours in any of those parks when you can.. Wien…

I don't know which century your Vienna map is from, but the Wienerwald, the Donauinsel etc. are all within city limits. As I said before, maybe you should considering moving to another district. It took me, erm, 15 years to move beyond the Gürtel -- i.e. closer to the above places. Today I'm asking myself what took me so long.

The city itself is what took you so long. Take a good hard look - did you always know what was beyond the wall?

For the record, I live outside the city limits, at the tip of the Donauinsel, and frequent the area often.. yes, Donauinsel is 'in the city of Vienna', but it still takes on average 3 train rides through the concrete jungle to get there for the average citizen.

Wienerwald is definitely not something I'd consider 'within the city limits' - its close, and the city is surrounded by it, but again - we're talking about the city, not its surrounding towns. The city of Vienna is a concrete jungle, and has been so for centuries - its citizens, and this is my point, have become acclimated to it and no longer see The Wall. Its still there, though. You just demonstrated this fact..

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