Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…
We as developers in the Open Source community should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. What?! You can take my vim+bash+tmux+urxvt when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!
Neovim
251–260 of 372 posts
Re: Neovim
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hardly think so. Let's address them: > "LateX is slow, inconsistent and needs to be ran multiple times to give a correct result" It is not slow, it runs in under a second on most documents I have authored. > "Inconsistent" I'm not sure what tinco meant by this, but it does in fact return the same results for the same file across multiple runs. > "Needs to be run multiple times to give the correct result" This is tr…
It is not slow, it runs in under a second on most documents I have authored. It is slow. On my PhD thesis, it took more than one minute at some point, on an SSD. Not very convenient if you are tweaking figures and equations, and want to preview a change quickly.
Re: Neovim
#253Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…
ring ring ring "yeah, what's up?" "Nagios is paging, something with that code you pushed live a couple hours ago is throwing a fit... looks like half the web cluster is on the verge of going to swap, can you look into it? asap!" "Well, I'm on at the bus stop and won't be near a computer for at least an hour...yeah, I'll sort it out, will text you when we can push fix live." pulls out Note 3, shitty 3G coverage connec…
Re: Neovim
#254Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…
I am honestly amazed at how feistily every 'hacker' here is defending LaTeX in response to your comment. I agree with you for the most part. This whole "it's apples to oranges" claim is bullshit. Both Word as well as LaTeX can be used for anything from writing a resume, making a technical paper with a few simple equations, to writing an entire Vector or Linear Algebra textbooks. When you have two options for doing th…
So can HTML. Would you compare Word to HTML? You can also write your resume in Notepad. Does that make Word comparable to Notepad? If you want to compare anything, compare LyX to Word. At least that makes some sense, even if the output of the latter just sucks in comparison to the former.
TeX is at its core a typesetting engine. Word is largely a GUI markup editor. It doesn't even do anything coming close to typesetting.
> * the steep learning curve: throw your 14-year-old who's doing a math assignment Word vs your favourite LaTeX editor, see what happens;
Are you sure? Customizing LaTeX can be hard, but using it in a straightforward way is no more difficult than HTML. Sure, it may be a bit more work than using a GUI, but once you get the hang of it it's a lot quicker than Word's formula editor.
> * lack of WYSIWYG-like feedback-loops: you have to wait a full minute on decently sized documents to see the result of adding that equation that took you 10 seconds to add;
In my experience it's a lot faster than that. The reason for this is simply that TeX does actual typesetting. This has a certain computational complexity, and cannot just be done on a line-by-line basis. Word is fast because it doesn't do anything like that. Again, Lyx has WYSIWYM (What you see is what you mean), which gives you an approximation of the output instantly, minus the proper typesetting.
> * syntax holdups: you miss an underscore and your document is broken. All the way through. And can take an hour to fix even if you're skilled. People writing documents that need LaTeX's power aren't always coders, and debugging is not a fun or planned-for activity for anyone.
It more commonly takes a minute, not an hour. Every had Word corrupt a file and mess up the styles in the middle of your 150 pages document? That's not exactly a quick fix either.
To sum up: If you want a WYSIWYM editor for TeX use Lyx. Otherwise, comparing LaTeX and Word makes about as much sense as comparing HTML and Word.
Re: Neovim
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
I fully agree. For me, Vi and Emacs are only when I don't have an option in terms of IDE support, even though I know at least Emacs quite well. What can I say, the world of Amiga GUIs, Smalltalk and Lisp environments spoiled me as an IDE fanboy. It baffles me why in 2014, some developers still prefer to work as if UNIX System V had just been released.
> It baffles me why in 2014, some developers still prefer to work as if UNIX System V had just been released. Because (a) some of us aren't convinced that things like IDEs give a better view of what's going on in the system; (b) some of us think that fundamental tools like terminal emulators, editors and so on should be debugged and stable because we have to earn our mortgage payments using them and chasing the shiny…
Re: Neovim
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
You may know this, but the author of Javascript was under severe time pressure, and wanted to just implement Scheme but got overruled by management.
Yeah, it's unfair of me to point the blame at mr Eich with the 'the author'. Javascript definitely was no small feat and has withstood the test of time very well. My point lies more in the '20 years' part of the argument, that in all that time we couldn't get these wrinkles ironed out.
Javascript has the requirement of backwards compatibility. The limitation is not technical. It's disingenuous to suggest it's so simple to replace these things or it's extremely naive.
Look at the recent HTTP redirect article for example. Something as simple as redirects have been implemented incorrectly for a long time. Browser vendors are well aware of it, but they cannot change the behavior because it will break every existing site that expects the broken behavior.
You should be more impressed with the things that last 20 years, not embarrassed. It means they were actually engineered well enough to be a good general solution.
Re: Neovim
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you want. Are you talking about InDesign? Exact placement of anything is really a pain with Latex, choosing "normal" fonts requires you to switch to a different compiler and the debugging information on all those automatic choices TeΧ and LaTeΧ does for you is abysmal. What I'm saying is that even though LaTeΧ allows you to do precision work does not mean it i…
I am very confused by the implication that TeX or LaTeX make it easy to create a document that looks exactly the way you want. Unless you want it to look like a paper presented to a publication that has a mandatory style, and a package is available with that style, it's just not true. And that is almost the whole point. Most people are idiots about how to present written material, so TeX and friends make those decisi…
How? This is an honest question. I wouldn't use Word anyway, but I am just not aware of anything that could come close to Git + LaTeX in terms of collaboration support.
Re: Neovim
#258Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…
I am honestly amazed at how feistily every 'hacker' here is defending LaTeX in response to your comment. I agree with you for the most part. This whole "it's apples to oranges" claim is bullshit. Both Word as well as LaTeX can be used for anything from writing a resume, making a technical paper with a few simple equations, to writing an entire Vector or Linear Algebra textbooks. When you have two options for doing th…
I'm sorry, but I just have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't encountered anything like that - not when I was starting out with LaTeX, not now when I use it for writing technical docs. "An hour to fix" smells like pure FUD to me - any mistake can take an hour, a minute, or even a week to fix. However, I can't imagine a syntax error like missing an underscore - especially one like that - could take more than a few minutes at the very most.
>PS: NeoVim sounds like someone finally got off their high horse (or from whining) and decided to actually make something better. Thanks!
I think you're a bit confused as to what exactly are the "hardcore entitled hackers" defending. Lots of systems in the UNIX ecosystem are bogged down by backward compatibility, are arcane, or just plainly in need of rewrite. Nobody disputes that. The commenters here however attack them from a completely different position, and with arguments which mostly don't hold water - so don't expect no defense.
Hackers aren't the kind of people who would cling to their tools despite them having obvious and easily mitigable flaws. After all, this post did gain a lot of traction, at this point mostly by simply presenting what would be great to do.
Re: Neovim
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
> ...should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. First, why? It works just fine. Second, is there anything better? I don't know of anything I would prefer to use. So until someone comes up with something, I'll stick to using Vim to write LaTeX in a Bash shell (might upgrade to zsh, we'll see).
No, it doesn't work fine. LateX is slow, inconsistent and needs to be ran multiple times to give a correct result, it has no API, is not extendable in a sane way, it's source code is so arcane there's books written about it, and if you've read the books the only thing you've learned is that trying to reimplement LateX is a fool's errand. And it's syntax is ugly. Markdown is better. Microsoft Word is better. They just…
LuaLaTeX is a reimplementation of PDFLaTeX on that base.
ConTeXt is a new syntax/concept based on LuaLaTeX (that doesn’t want to be compatible with LaTeX and its errors)
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That shell is unfortunately MS PowerShell. There are several approaches to do it in a way more familiar and compatible with unix shells. (some of which have been started recently, such as Final Term, and some are vaporware, such as TermKit)
And most editors are like that, some of which even have an optional vim mode for fans of that control scheme (my favourite is Kate)
Re: Neovim
#260Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…
ring ring ring "yeah, what's up?" "Nagios is paging, something with that code you pushed live a couple hours ago is throwing a fit... looks like half the web cluster is on the verge of going to swap, can you look into it? asap!" "Well, I'm on at the bus stop and won't be near a computer for at least an hour...yeah, I'll sort it out, will text you when we can push fix live." pulls out Note 3, shitty 3G coverage connec…
git commit -m "Always commit your changes first!"; git pull --rebase; git push
And I use tmux, it's more modern ;)I like the syslog into irc thing, that's neat.
By the way, I recently made a commit in the Github web interface while sitting on the toilet. No posix stack required ;)