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Neovim

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Re: Neovim

#181

Post by reeses »

Perseids wrote: post #161
stusmall wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you w…

> One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you want. Are you talking about InDesign? Exact placement of anything is really a pain with Latex, choosing "normal" fonts requires you to switch to a different compiler and the debugging information on all those automatic choices TeΧ and LaTeΧ does for you is abysmal. What I'm saying is that even though LaTeΧ allows you to do precision work does not mean it i…

I am very confused by the implication that TeX or LaTeX make it easy to create a document that looks exactly the way you want. Unless you want it to look like a paper presented to a publication that has a mandatory style, and a package is available with that style, it's just not true.

And that is almost the whole point. Most people are idiots about how to present written material, so TeX and friends make those decisions for us. It's especially frustrating when you have to dink with floats, because now you're second-guessing TeX, and it exacts a high price.

I've used TeX for over 25 years and I'm comfortable saying that I could produce documents of a similar quality, with better support for collaboration, with Word.

I still use TeX for many projects but the Word style capability is great.

Markdown still sucks, though. :)

Re: Neovim

#182

Post by reeses »

jbranchaud wrote: post #133
tinco wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in the list because it's what I would use for my thesis, if I'd do one now :) It's basic, but it has the semantics for most stuff, and can easily be extended for more. I'd do all formula's/drawings in external tools. Word nowadays has semantic typesetting controls too, I think since they started that ribbon thing that it has become useable. If you stick to using their semantic things I think you can do a pretty…

Writing a thesis using only markdown sounds extremely painful. Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? How are you going to create your list of figures? And your table of contents? How are you going to create, maintain, and organize your list of references? I could go on.

I actually had a mini panic attack thinking about that.

The best thing about markdown is pandoc.

Re: Neovim

#183

Post by chadillac »

tinco wrote: post #29

Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…

ring ring ring

"yeah, what's up?"

"Nagios is paging, something with that code you pushed live a couple hours ago is throwing a fit... looks like half the web cluster is on the verge of going to swap, can you look into it? asap!"

"Well, I'm on at the bus stop and won't be near a computer for at least an hour...yeah, I'll sort it out, will text you when we can push fix live."

pulls out Note 3, shitty 3G coverage

connects to VPN

ssh into dev env with connectbot

switches to hackerkeyboard for input mode

screen -dr dev

Ctrl+c, tail join IRC channel that dumps syslogs from production cluster

sees error

Ctrl+c,vim the/file/causing/the/unexpected/problem

fix, :wq

git stash, git pull, git stash apply, git commit, git push

Ctrl+d, exit

sends text message "good to go!"

deal with it.

Re: Neovim

#184

Post by halostatue »

tinco wrote: post #84
stusmall wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you w…

I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff. I dropped out halfway through my graduate degree, so I'm not what you'd call an academic. But I've seen and read enough to know that you can do impressive things with LaTex. I have another question though, how much have you used Word? I have used it only a couple of times since highschool, bu…

I've formatted three books self-published by my wife. The first in Pages (better than Word for nearly everything except document interchange), and the latter two in LaTeX.

I'll take LaTeX. It's more reliably reproducible. Once I got the basic format created (for her second book)—which took about as much time as it took to format the first book in Pages—the third book took about a tenth the time. My tooling was in place.

It's not for everyone, and you really have to either dig deep or find a macro set that does what you want (or both—I'm using a macro set on top of scrbook). There is room for something better, but that something better is not Word (or Pages).

(I'd almost say that what LeanPub does is good enough, but their LaTeX typography sucked when I tried it almost two years ago.)

Re: Neovim

#185

Post by glesica »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #165
glesica wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. First, why? It works just fine. Second, is there anything better? I don't know of anything I would prefer to use. So until someone comes up with something, I'll stick to using Vim to write LaTeX in a Bash shell (might upgrade to zsh, we'll see).

For one example, just off the top of my head, most any remotely technically-inclined young person in 2014 knows that you use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V/A to undo, cut, copy, paste, and select all. (Or substitute Command if you're on a Mac--same basic idea.) They've got that down cold, along with a host of other ubiquitous editing conventions--Ctrl-Left/Right to jump words, Shift-arrowkeys to highlight, Home/End to jump to the begi…

Unix was here before all those conventions you listed. So go back in time and tell Windows and Mac software vendors to stop making everyone change their muscle memory in order to use some new software...

But seriously, this is a complaint I hear from undergrads in CS all the time. My answer is the same every single time: stop whining and get over it. You're a professional now, you use professional tools and sometimes they work differently, that's just the price of admission. Nobody whines that driving an 18-wheeler is different from driving a compact car, they just suck it up and train for a CDL.

Re: Neovim

#186

Post by devcjohnson »

tinco wrote: post #64
roel_v wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of software - fuck you, and may you never touch anything I use. It's juvenile oo-look-shiny nonsense like this that makes us people who just want to get shit done waste yet another afternoon on patching working stuff after a (forced) update because some wet behind the ears dude decided that everybody before him was a utter moron. There is a reason people pay for software that just works, and will work for t…

Haha, thanks roel. I'm so glad to be relieved of the duty to try to improve things you use... And let me extend my apologies in name of all the authors of software whose extra features and nice bug-freeness you enjoyed at the terrible cost of going through the gruelling process of having to upgrade your software. Perhaps all us developers of modern software could get together raise funds so you could get a refurbishe…

Agreed the OP was harsh in response but the point made regardless. Your caviler attitude in this thread, and overall post, makes me question your maturity as an industrial grade programmer but that moves towards ad hominem instead of healthy debate...this is not a sleight and will agree I lost the debate before it started.

Do keep in mind that modern software as you state are great tools for completed tools but very little options for those that create the tools themselves, IDE's for example but not limited to that concept. This leads to my point:

To paraphrase the OP, maybe some things should not be fucked with for "code purity" in the name of functional purity. If you vehemently disagree, make a better product. Critical mass will replace the failed ideology that ultimately leads to a better technology. All the flame wars in the world won't change this fact and ultimate outcome.

Re: Neovim

#187

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

ngoldbaum wrote: post #172
jbranchaud wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing a thesis using only markdown sounds extremely painful. Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? How are you going to create your list of figures? And your table of contents? How are you going to create, maintain, and organize your list of references? I could go on.

> Are you going to create all your figures elsewhere and then include them as images? This is what most people do in physics and astronomy. You make the plot in some kind of plotting package and export it to a vector format. In astronomy, the journals only recently started accepting PDF figures in addition to EPS. In my experience doing all of my figures in LaTeX is significantly more painful than using a real plotti…

I wrote a dissertation, two theses, and a bunch of papers in latex and I never ever ever ever did any graphics that weren't imported as eps or, later, png.

Re: Neovim

#188

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

tinco wrote: post #56
riffraff wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is you broke compatibility now. Will you do it again next year, and fix 100 plugins once more? I am also not a big fun of extreme forms of compatibility, but plenty of projects try to break it only to have people which stick around with old versions for years.

Big projects like Python only break compatibility once every few years, and a lot of thought goes into it. I think it's a lack of respect to the authors of Python and perhaps a lack of authority of Guido that packages are not being upgraded to Python 3. I wonder what would happen, if just a few companies that actively use Python, like Google, would hire a few devs that for a year would only fork and fix Python 2 proj…

Maybe I would have upgraded to python 3 by now if I saw any compelling reason to do so (like, say, getting rid of the GIL).

Re: Neovim

#189

Post by tarruda »

jdc2172 wrote: post #58

the improvements to the plguin system sound awesome - hopefully it remove the need to do virtually anything in vimscript...

Yes, anyone will be able to extend vim without knowing vimscript exists.

Re: Neovim

#190

Post by nicklovescode »

bmj wrote: post #177
nicklovescode wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use the free version. It's full featured but has intermittent alerts asking you to upgrade[0]. [0] Recent vim convert.

Sublime is only free-as-in-beer. Some use vim because it is also free-as-in-speech.

"I just looked it up, $70 is way out of my pay range. I'll convert when I have a full-time job."
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