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Neovim

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Re: Neovim

#161

Post by Perseids »

stusmall wrote: post #78
tinco wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do what I want. Also, LaTeX is a system for creating documents, and Word is a system for creating documents. There's only four important differences: Word has a more modern architecture, Words compiler is integrated into its GUI, Word is closed source, Words source format is not human readable. Apples to Oranges? I can compare these Braeburns to those Fujis just fine thank you.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you w…

> One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you want.

Are you talking about InDesign? Exact placement of anything is really a pain with Latex, choosing "normal" fonts requires you to switch to a different compiler and the debugging information on all those automatic choices TeΧ and LaTeΧ does for you is abysmal. What I'm saying is that even though LaTeΧ allows you to do precision work does not mean it is a good at it.

Re: Neovim

#162

Post by ori_b »

tinco wrote: post #132
stusmall wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff I had a long talk about something like this with a close friend last night. He has a favorite technology stack that is regularly trash talked on sites like this. From what he's seen its usually from people who have only a passing knowledge of it. Either they worked a job and only had to mess…

I wouldn't trash talk this if it was simply an unpopular way of working. I'm trash talking it because it's the most popular way of working. I don't know anyone that does not write his/her papers in LaTex. I have a lot of respect for having your own toolchain that's optimized and comfortable for you. I am sorry I come across wrong, I am not saying that developers should feel ashamed for using it. I am saying developer…

> I'm trash talking it because it's the most popular way of working. I don't know anyone that does not write his/her papers in LaTex.

And you never stopped to investigate why, in spite of the far greater ease of entry that alternatives have?

Re: Neovim

#163

Post by blueblob »

tinco wrote: post #132
stusmall wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff I had a long talk about something like this with a close friend last night. He has a favorite technology stack that is regularly trash talked on sites like this. From what he's seen its usually from people who have only a passing knowledge of it. Either they worked a job and only had to mess…

I wouldn't trash talk this if it was simply an unpopular way of working. I'm trash talking it because it's the most popular way of working. I don't know anyone that does not write his/her papers in LaTex. I have a lot of respect for having your own toolchain that's optimized and comfortable for you. I am sorry I come across wrong, I am not saying that developers should feel ashamed for using it. I am saying developer…

I disagree that it's the most popular way of working. Perhaps that is true just in mathematics, physics, and maybe even computer science but unlikely to be true in many other fields. Let's be realistic and realize that the majority of people do not use LaTeX. The ones who do use it, use it because they are putting in a lot of mathematical formulae which are easier to do in LaTeX than Word (although Microsoft is making progress with the equation editor) and the formulae look way nicer in LaTeX. Word renders the formulae into an equation that generally looks bad and scales worse.

The things that I use LaTeX for are usually my own writing that I don't have to collaborate with other people for. If I have to work with other people I use Word. The things that I like about latex are that I can have it automatically generate my figures because I can script it, which I can't do with Word.

I agree that LaTeX can be difficult to write but you have to realize that word has it's shortcomings too (put an image in and send the document to somebody else, chances are the layout will get messed up). Tools like pandoc are trying to alleviate both problems so people can work in whatever environment they prefer, which seems like a good solution to me. I could write part of my document in markdown, convert to LaTeX and write my formulae and then convert to Word so my coworkers can edit it easier.

Re: Neovim

#164

Post by blueblob »

davidgerard wrote: post #90
tinco wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, I need the human readable source part, so I can track my work and cooperate in git :) I use LibreOffice for some stuff though.

Versioning of OpenOffice/LibreOffice documents using git: http://blog.riemann.cc/2013/04/23/versioning-of-openoffice-l...

That is really cool, thanks for that.

Re: Neovim

#165

Post by PhasmaFelis »

glesica wrote: post #40
tinco wrote: post #29

Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…

> ...should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. First, why? It works just fine. Second, is there anything better? I don't know of anything I would prefer to use. So until someone comes up with something, I'll stick to using Vim to write LaTeX in a Bash shell (might upgrade to zsh, we'll see).

For one example, just off the top of my head, most any remotely technically-inclined young person in 2014 knows that you use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V/A to undo, cut, copy, paste, and select all. (Or substitute Command if you're on a Mac--same basic idea.) They've got that down cold, along with a host of other ubiquitous editing conventions--Ctrl-Left/Right to jump words, Shift-arrowkeys to highlight, Home/End to jump to the beginning/end of the screen line, etc etc etc. Basic text navigation and editing is a breeze, straight from muscle memory.

Then you try command-line Unix for the first time and nothing works anymore. You have to unlearn the habits of a lifetime before you can do something as simple as edit text. You can't even remap them effectively, because most of them do something else in vim or bash that you'd have to move elsewhere.

This is one of those problems that is just completely invisible to old Unix hands. It took me years to stop writing code in Notepad, because using vim felt like trying to drive a car with the gas and brake reversed, and someone punching me in the face every time I reach for the turn signal.

I'm not saying Unix conventions are objectively worse than Mac/Windows ones. Once you've got them trained into muscle memory, they're just as effective as anything else. But that need to retrain is a pointless roadblock in the path of every would-be hacker.

Re: Neovim

#166

Post by Foxboron »

haberman wrote: post #134
standardfoil wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't tell if you are actually serious about the above or not, especially path 1.

I personally think path 1 is absolutely where editors should be going. Upvote from me. NeoVim is a step in the right direction, but not far enough. The future is a more Light Table like environment ( http://www.lighttable.com/ ). But Light Table (as visionary as I think its UI is) is written (and extended, AFAIK) in ClojureScript, a LISP-like language that nobody knows. It it was written and could be extended in Java…

Getting a little ahead of ourselfs maybe?

"Nobody knows", lets just compare IRC. #javascript on freenode got 951 users. #clojure on freenode got 651 users. Even tho its not a good comparison, saying "nobody" knows clojure is very far fetched. It has a ever growing community, with several books published, and the whole point on Chris choosing Clojure shows enough of its maturity.

Re: Neovim

#167

Post by haberman »

Foxboron wrote: post #166
haberman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think path 1 is absolutely where editors should be going. Upvote from me. NeoVim is a step in the right direction, but not far enough. The future is a more Light Table like environment ( http://www.lighttable.com/ ). But Light Table (as visionary as I think its UI is) is written (and extended, AFAIK) in ClojureScript, a LISP-like language that nobody knows. It it was written and could be extended in Java…

Getting a little ahead of ourselfs maybe? "Nobody knows", lets just compare IRC. #javascript on freenode got 951 users. #clojure on freenode got 651 users. Even tho its not a good comparison, saying "nobody" knows clojure is very far fetched. It has a ever growing community, with several books published, and the whole point on Chris choosing Clojure shows enough of its maturity.

Search Amazon.com books:

ClojureScript: 10 results (only one of these actually has ClojureScript in the title)

Clojure: 89 results

JavaScript: 5,787 results

Sorry, there is no comparison.

I'm not saying Clojure sucks, I am just saying that it's not mainstream. ClojureScript even less so -- it's an offshoot of Clojure which was designed around the JVM, not browsers.

Re: Neovim

#168

Post by dijit »

slashnull wrote: post #125
chongli wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as developers in the Open Source community should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. What?! You can take my vim+bash+tmux+urxvt when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

> 2014 > not zsh

>implying

>not on /g/

Re: Neovim

#169

Post by skrewler »

First off, what happens if you don't meet the funding goal, do we get our money back?

I think a big reason for Vims popularity is how ubiquitous it is. It's installed by default on most *nix operating systems. Even if I'm not privileged on a system, I can still pull down my dotfiles and have my familiar vim editing experience.

If I understand correctly, plugins written for Vim would be compatible with Neovim, but not vice versa?

Re: Neovim

#170

Post by chongli »

slashnull wrote: post #125
chongli wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as developers in the Open Source community should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. What?! You can take my vim+bash+tmux+urxvt when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

> 2014 > not zsh

I used to use zsh (including a giant, customized zshlovers .zhsrc) but I switched back to bash when I started administrating a few different servers. There's just something to be said for feeling totally comfortable and productive with a default environment. I'm also quite comfortable using plain old vi -- something a lot of other vim users can't stand.
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