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Neovim

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Re: Neovim

#121
post #64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of software - fuck you, and may you never touch anything I use. It's juvenile oo-look-shiny nonsense like this that makes us people who just want to get shit done waste yet another afternoon on patching working stuff after a (forced) update because some wet behind the ears dude decided that everybody before him was a utter moron. There is a reason people pay for software that just works, and will work for t…

Haha, thanks roel. I'm so glad to be relieved of the duty to try to improve things you use... And let me extend my apologies in name of all the authors of software whose extra features and nice bug-freeness you enjoyed at the terrible cost of going through the gruelling process of having to upgrade your software. Perhaps all us developers of modern software could get together raise funds so you could get a refurbishe…

That's pretty funny. OSX has far more backwards-compatibility with old software than OS <= 9. Heck, it even comes with vim and an xterm-compatible terminal preinstalled.

Re: Neovim

#122
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but how much do you actually use/have used LaTex? They aren't even similar. They have very few similar use cases. One is a typesetting system the other is a word processor. Sure, documents come out the other end with both but the process and targets are very different. One allows you to quickly and easily make a quality document. One allows you to make the document to look exactly how you w…

I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff. I dropped out halfway through my graduate degree, so I'm not what you'd call an academic. But I've seen and read enough to know that you can do impressive things with LaTex. I have another question though, how much have you used Word? I have used it only a couple of times since highschool, bu…

>I'm by no means a LaTex expert. I've written a few papers and a bunch of reports, nothing published, just undergraduate stuff

I had a long talk about something like this with a close friend last night. He has a favorite technology stack that is regularly trash talked on sites like this. From what he's seen its usually from people who have only a passing knowledge of it. Either they worked a job and only had to mess with it for a few months or they worked with it for a long time but never went past just the surface. Almost all the complaints he's seen about it are either extremely outdated, fixable with a little custom code or configuration changes. I think you should spend a little more time with it before you say that developers should feel "ashamed" for using it. Your post falls squarely into the category he was talking about.

Re: Neovim

#123
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do what I want. Also, LaTeX is a system for creating documents, and Word is a system for creating documents. There's only four important differences: Word has a more modern architecture, Words compiler is integrated into its GUI, Word is closed source, Words source format is not human readable. Apples to Oranges? I can compare these Braeburns to those Fujis just fine thank you.

Those are just the surface differences. The modes in which you use all of these are very different. Word: explicit WYSIWYG control over typesetting. LaTeX: semantic level control over typesetting. Additionally provides explicit low level typesetting commands. Markdown: given how basic (trivial even) Markdown is ( http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax ) I'm not sure why it's even in this list.

It's in the list because it's what I would use for my thesis, if I'd do one now :) It's basic, but it has the semantics for most stuff, and can easily be extended for more. I'd do all formula's/drawings in external tools.

Word nowadays has semantic typesetting controls too, I think since they started that ribbon thing that it has become useable. If you stick to using their semantic things I think you can do a pretty good job of properly typesetting in Word.

Re: Neovim

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bram shows no interest in these sorts of things. Frequently, devs post to the vim mailing with a month or two of work on some new feature with no comment from the BDFL.

So why don't all these people get together and fork?

I have only superficially browsed vim sources some months ago. Vim source code is literally disgusting. The number of platforms vim runs on is close to Avogadro's number. It supports 5 or sth languages for customisation. I always had in my mind to fork the thing and remove all those languages, and strip off the compatibility stuff so it will be a pure Unix program, but I never got to do it.

Also, the source repository contains binary (.a, .dll) files, which I did not inspect. I always search the web for an alternative editor when I somehow browse the vim source repository.

Re: Neovim

#125
post #69
post #29

Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…

We as developers in the Open Source community should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators. What?! You can take my vim+bash+tmux+urxvt when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

> 2014 > not zsh

Re: Neovim

#126
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Sublime text provides a 99% feature loss but a great usability gain? Can you explain that a bit?

Well, I can explain how I use it. I have my Sublime in legacy mode, which enables some vim like controls. And I benefit from Sublimes super fast text rendering, it's nice fonts and colors, the way it integrates with my desktop environment, how fast it interacts with plugins that spawn popups and analyze my code. And then every once in a while I need to do some cool text transformation, and it doesn't work, so I launc…

> And I benefit from Sublimes super fast text rendering, it's nice fonts and colors, the way it integrates with my desktop environment, how fast it interacts with plugins that spawn popups and analyze my code.

The sentence quoted above sounds a lot like something out of a product promotion.

Re: Neovim

#127
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't work fine. LateX is slow, inconsistent and needs to be ran multiple times to give a correct result, it has no API, is not extendable in a sane way, it's source code is so arcane there's books written about it, and if you've read the books the only thing you've learned is that trying to reimplement LateX is a fool's errand. And it's syntax is ugly. Markdown is better. Microsoft Word is better. They just…

"A shell that instead of working on character streams worked on structured and annotated data streams, so it could intelligently interpret what is going on?" I'm not convinced that's worse, but I'm not convinced it's better for the task of being a shell . It's totally, unequivocally, way the hell better when you're trying to build anything large out of it, but taking everything back to byte streams at the interfaces…

Have you seen http://xiki.org? It seems a good idea for the she'll to know what a directory is for example.

Re: Neovim

#128
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, thanks roel. I'm so glad to be relieved of the duty to try to improve things you use... And let me extend my apologies in name of all the authors of software whose extra features and nice bug-freeness you enjoyed at the terrible cost of going through the gruelling process of having to upgrade your software. Perhaps all us developers of modern software could get together raise funds so you could get a refurbishe…

That's pretty funny. OSX has far more backwards-compatibility with old software than OS <= 9. Heck, it even comes with vim and an xterm-compatible terminal preinstalled.

Haha, that's funny indeed. I hadn't looked at it that way :)

Re: Neovim

#129
post #29

Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…

> I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts.

Please clarify by what is meant by "backwards compatibility," since this is a loaded phrase. On the one hand, it's the idea that software system B can do everything that earlier software system A can, using the semantics of software system A (e.g. "vim can do everything vi can, using the semantics of vi"). On the other hand, it's the idea that software system B is semantically incompatible with software system A (e.g. SublimeText vs vim), but software systems A and B can coexist without breaking each other. While I agree that achieving the former idea of backwards compatibility isn't always important (particularly in the realm of text editors), achieving the latter is an absolute must. If there is one thing I will not tolerate on my systems, it is a piece of software that breaks other working software that I rely on.

> There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chances are it's shit and a lot of it should be thrown out.

Like it or not, we're still in the Unix era, and likely will be for some time. Unix is more than a specific implementation or even a specific API--it also includes the logical abstractions behind them. You still deal with files, directories, processes, threads, pipes, sockets, dynamically-linked libraries, paging, etc., whether you're on Unix or Windows. This means SublimeText is "Unix era software" too--it's built on top of the same Unix-era abstractions as vim. Perhaps the only Unix abstraction vim makes use of that SublimeText does not is the TTY, but that doesn't stop me from using vim where TTYs don't exist.

And you're right, most Unix era software is shit. But don't limit yourself to Unix era software--most software in general is shit. Very few pieces of software become as robust and widely-used as vim, and SublimeText isn't going to make vim disappear anytime soon (especially since it doesn't break working vim installations).

> We as developers in the Open Source community should be ashamed people are still using Vim to write LaTeX in Bash running on terminal emulators.

Feel ashamed of me then, since I do exactly this. Why? Because there isn't anything sufficiently better for what I need to do. I have given every single WYSIWYG editor that claims to do a better job a good-faith trial, and I have always gone back because each contender always lacked the ability to do something I needed to do.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do better; it certainly is. It's just that I've seen nothing that actually is better. I would address this myself, but I have too many other, more important things to work on (like finishing my PhD thesis).

> (Yes, it gives me shivers just thinking about how much each of those technologies sucks when you think about how good it all could be.)

Code doesn't write itself :) Software systems don't design themselves either :) What you're asking for is a very, very tall order. Many have tried to replace that which is "good enough," and yet we're still in the Unix era despite their efforts.

Re: Neovim

#130
post #29

Thanks for trying to do what many of us secretly wished we could do but can't because of time/skill constraints. I will definitely move to NeoVim the second it's packaged (is it yet?), regardless if you've changed anything yet. I hate the ideas many programmers have about backwards compatibility, that it's more important than development speed and modern concepts. There is nothing holy about Unix era software, chance…

I can't believe I read this whole thread... I need to go take a shower now...
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