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Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

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Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they be statistically identical? I'm pretty sure I gave a specific example of how this wasn't true. Did you miss English class in addition to math class?

You explicitly stated that any variation from a random distribution must be due to factors other than individual agency. But of course, you know that. How does someone whose posting history is almost entirely blatant trolling like that not manage to get banned more frequently?

Oh, I see. That's why you're on a throwaway. Cool.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#112

(sorry, ranty opiniony comment) Why do people care about the numbers of women in Computer Science classes? Because, they say, it shows some inherent discrimination against women in the industry. (which totally exists, but mainly as a bigger cultural issue that affects everyone along gender lines) If you ask how that could be (as nobody is actually barring women from signing up for classes) the most popular theory is…

No one is saying that more women in CS courses will eliminate sexism everywhere. There is intrinsic value to having gender diversity in any field, and CS is one with a notable lack of it. This is a classic example of "moving the goalposts". By claiming that incremental progress doesn't matter (or is somehow detrimental[1]) because of sexism elsewhere, you inhibit progress everywhere. By relying on strawman arguments…

There is intrinsic value to having gender diversity in any field

I disagree.

There's no such thing as "intrinsic value", and arguing based on it is a form of begging the question.

Gender balance is nice because it has certain effects that I happen to like. Such as not spending all day in a room full of only guys.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#113

Not 2 years ago, it was at least 90% male. Although towards the end of the term, it trended towards a balance. ----- On review, the article is NOT about what you'd consider CS1 "Introduction to Symbolic Programming was reborn as Beauty and the Joy of Computing." This is a CS class in the loosest sense of the word. It fulfills no prerequisites towards a CS degree. OTOH I could just be cynical, and this class is just w…

Into to Symbolic Programming hasn't been replaced. http://general-catalog.berkeley.edu/catalog/gcc_list_crse_re... Compare the descriptions for CS3L (Intro to Symbolic Programming) to CS10. They both still exist and seem very different.

CS3L hasn't been offered for the last couple of years. The catalog includes classes that haven't been offered for a long time.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're saying that aside from genitalia, men and women are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of genders in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?

"So, you're saying that aside from skin colour, black and white people are exactly the same and, in a vacuum, the distribution of race in any given profession should be perfectly equal? You really believe that?" ^ It wasn't long ago that that type of claim was used often. Sexist views always have some sort of justification like "men and women ARE different!" or "men have a natural ability to think logically and are t…

> I would recommend reading the book "Delusions of Gender"

> to learn how all of those studies have proven flawed/heavily biased

Notice the extreme impression you've gotten from this book. She does not "prove" flaws in all research on this topic, though often her criticisms are valid she chooses areas to criticize and hints that it's representative of all research that show gender differences.

She could have also chosen to criticize studies which attempt to disprove gender differences, which are often just as flawed.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#115
I'm interested in seeing the racial breakdown here for intro to computer science enrollment, because I would imagine that that is the reason Berkeley is the exception. Something like 40% of the student population is asian [0], and IIRC, in computer science only two races are disproportionately represented per capita, caucasians and asians. For this reason I think Berkeley CS enrollment hardly counts as a data point indicative of a larger trend in CS enrollment.

FWIW, before a flamewar starts, this observation is not to be construed as bigotry, but simply descriptivist.

[0] http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/enrollmentdata.html

(I found it interesting that the Berkeley enrollment statistics lump all latinos/hispanics into figure, but break out the individual percentages for each asian subgroup.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying that more women in CS courses will eliminate sexism everywhere. There is intrinsic value to having gender diversity in any field, and CS is one with a notable lack of it. This is a classic example of "moving the goalposts". By claiming that incremental progress doesn't matter (or is somehow detrimental[1]) because of sexism elsewhere, you inhibit progress everywhere. By relying on strawman arguments…

There is intrinsic value to having gender diversity in any field I disagree. There's no such thing as "intrinsic value", and arguing based on it is a form of begging the question. Gender balance is nice because it has certain effects that I happen to like. Such as not spending all day in a room full of only guys.

No interest in debating philosophy in a HN comment thread, but saying that gender diversity has intrinsic value (and I'd argue it does, especially from a deontological/Rawlsian perspective which considers fairness an intrinsically moral good) does not negate its extrinsic value (positive social/interpersonal benefits). Either way, I don't care. My point is that the previous comment reduces the value of gender diversity in the workplace only to the degree it can solve sexism globally. Which is a textbook example of "moving the goalposts".

P.S., gender balance is "nice" for reasons that don't involve you as well. Really more about equal opportunity for women in this case, who face constant discrimination in CS, among many other fields.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you actually determine what is 'over-represented' and not just the result of individual agency en masse?

Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution, which results in a proportionate representation within reasonable error margins. Not having this suggests that there's another factor besides individual agency factoring into decisions. It could be something acceptable, like men can't biologically give birth (yet), or it could be something unacceptable, like blacks being targeted by police solely on suspicio…

I do not agree with the first statement - it supposes that men and women will, given an option and without external pressures, always choose the same thing in equal amounts. I don't think that is a settled question. But it is worth looking into, as are any external pressures that may be keeping women out of 'Tech'. Does a representative field such as you suggest exist? Genuine question. I'm thinking retail/service?

In regards to Congress, it kind of makes sense to me they would be overwhelmingly from a law background - after all, the ones who know law best and are interested in law are most likely to want to have the ability to change it.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#118
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to speak for the paulwithap, but it seems we're talking about the disproportionate amount of effort to get men into in careers where women are over-representing compared to the other way around. And also the disproportionate amount of criticism we give to members in that field when they don't. I'm all for anyone doing what ever job they feel like doing as long as they have the skills to do it. I don't ev…

My uncle lost his job recently as a factory worker and is retraining at the age of 50 to be an nurse aide. He wishes he'd trained as nurse but 30 years ago it was near impossible. Not every man wants to be a brain surgeon. And teachers? That has to be the MOST important group where we should absolutely have equal representation.

I would never consider being a teacher because of the assumption of men being pedophiles. Well, that and pay.

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#119

(sorry, ranty opiniony comment) Why do people care about the numbers of women in Computer Science classes? Because, they say, it shows some inherent discrimination against women in the industry. (which totally exists, but mainly as a bigger cultural issue that affects everyone along gender lines) If you ask how that could be (as nobody is actually barring women from signing up for classes) the most popular theory is…

What would it look like to, as you put it "attack the cause of inequality - our cultural differences and biases"? What would you do?

Re: Women Outnumber Men For The First Time In Berkeley’s Intro To Computer Science

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual agency en masse should be a random distribution, which results in a proportionate representation within reasonable error margins. Not having this suggests that there's another factor besides individual agency factoring into decisions. It could be something acceptable, like men can't biologically give birth (yet), or it could be something unacceptable, like blacks being targeted by police solely on suspicio…

I do not agree with the first statement - it supposes that men and women will, given an option and without external pressures, always choose the same thing in equal amounts. I don't think that is a settled question. But it is worth looking into, as are any external pressures that may be keeping women out of 'Tech'. Does a representative field such as you suggest exist? Genuine question. I'm thinking retail/service? I…

> I do not agree with the first statement - it supposes that men and women will, given an option and without external pressures, always choose the same thing in equal amounts.

That's not quite what I'm supposing.

I'm supposing that the choices of individual people without external pressures will always choose things unpredictably. In other words, correlation between individual choice and any particular demographic facet of a person should be pure chance.

This is how random number generators work. You want to provide as even a distribution as possible. That doesn't change the fact that, given a certain seed, the generator will always return the same "random" result.

The analogy comes back around like this: if you can reliably predict that a random number generator will return a number divisible by 3 if the input is odd, there's something weird going on even if some results are not divisible by 3. Chances are, if you look at the RNG's algorithm, you'll find something that creates that bias.

Do you care? Is that an issue? Is that a vulnerability? That's an entirely different question. As software engineers, we'd call it a business or design decision. In the wider world, we call it morality or ethics.

Edit to add: One of the consequences of this perspective is that it factors in any demographic variety, not just "men and women". If someone has a chromosomal set of XXY, then it still makes sense to consider their representation. That it's vanishingly small, such that they rarely register a blip on populations smaller than "the entire world", is part of the same analysis.

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