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Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

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Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#31

Post by eliah-lakhin »

taybin wrote: post #11
seldo wrote: post #9

Since you asked: I have never tried Erlang because I've heard it's like Haskell but harder to learn, and Haskell already breaks my feeble mind, so I have steered clear. This may or may not be an accurate picture, but it was my decision-making process. I have no programming problems that make me think learning a whole new language would be worth it (on top of my existng stack of 10 or so).

Erlang is much easier than Haskell. Haskell breaks my mind, but Erlang is easy-peasy.

Yes, but newcomers don't know that. First thing they see is old school algol-like spaghetti. :) Haskell looks much nicer.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#32

Post by seancribbs »

bfrog wrote: post #13

It has a huge learning curve compared to many other languages. Ask the simple question of how do you write the equivalent of int main(....) { ... } and well... there isn't one! You are almost forced, from the start, to learn about releases and a ton of other really complicated stuff just to write a program you can share. Its sort of being fixed with relx. Secondly no one seems to understand pattern matching at first.…

#!/usr/bin/env escript

main(_) -> io:format("hello, world").

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#33

Post by DougWebb »

I haven't looked at Erlang before, so I thought I give it a quick look. Google led me to the Erlang home page[1], which has "What is Erlang" (sounds good) and "What is OTP" (which doesn't bother to define what O, T, and P stand for.)

Following the Erlang Quickstart [2] link, I get a page that doesn't really tell me anything about the language. It demonstrates a program that implements a factorial function, then tells me to go write games. Other than "Burn the CPU", I'm not sure what kind of games I can write with what I learned here.

The first link to more documentation at the bottom of the page goes to a book's website, so that's a dead end. The second link goes to an online reference guide [3] which seems more promising, until I read the introduction [4]. Under "Things Left Out" is "How to communicate with the outside world". Hrm...

So, what I have so far is that Erlang is a functional language, and that the online reference doesn't cover interaction with anything outside of your program. Based on this I'm guessing that Erlang is one of those functional languages that are great for mathematical proof-like software development but not practical for solving actual problems because the world is mutable and the language constructs are not. Yes, I'm making a big inference here, but that definitely seems like where I'm heading.

So I'm going to stop here, and do some real work in a pragmatic language.

[1] http://www.erlang.org

[2] http://www.erlang.org/static/getting_started_quickly.html

[3] http://www.erlang.org/doc/getting_started/users_guide.html

[4] http://www.erlang.org/doc/getting_started/intro.html#id62800

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#34

Post by technomancy »

My theory: writing network servers that are not web servers is a relatively uncommon problem to have these days.

One of the hardest parts about learning a new language is coming up with a learning project that showcases the unique strengths of the language without being intimidating to a newcomer or too contrived to actually be useful. This is difficult in any language, but it's especially so in Erlang.

Obviously "it's different; people don't like things that are different" has a lot to do with it, but we've seen other FP languages experiencing faster growth recently, so I don't think that can be the only cause.

I've been using it for a few months, for what it's worth.

Edit: obviously there are lots of people who need to write concurrent network server clusters, but I'd argue that the benefits of the Erlang approach are difficult to grasp before you've actually deployed something written in Erlang; simple toy projects (which are a prerequisite to learning a language) don't usually play to its strengths. A language that's really good at web apps is going to grow more quickly simply because its advantages are easier to appreciate from the start.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#35

Post by Nogwater »

jerf wrote: post #16

Honestly, I think what kills it is that it's not an Algol-descended language [1]. If Erlang was written with an Algol-esque syntax it would have taken off years ago. But instead it has this weird syntax, which it then doesn't really do that much with. What do I mean by that? Haskell has a radically different syntax, but it does things with that syntax and its pervasive currying to enable a powerful succinctness that…

Not knowing enough about Erlang/OTP or Go: Would it be possible for more of OTP to be replicated in a Go 2.0? What's missing? What would it take? What can never be replicated?

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#36

Post by jaimebuelta »

Erlang is a very specialised language. It does one thing well (scalability) at the expense of not really being a general purpose language.

The syntax is just weird, not only in a paradigm-way (pattern matching is not huge in most languages, but, hey, that's the way of doing stuff in functional programming), but on strange places ("read" lines ending on dot, semicolon takes time, it does not share any common syntax definitions with the languages used by 99% of the programmers). That sets a high bar in approaching the language, so it's difficult to "play around" with it (at least compared with other languages)

While I like some of the advantages of Erlang, the lack of general support for a lot of common operations (and yes, string manipulation is a huge deal) and the fact that it is designed with a very very particular problem in mind makes it "a silver bullet". Not in the usual meaning, but in the way that's only useful for killing a werewolf. For every other task is too expensive and just not the proper tool. I was involved in a project that used Erlang for something not well suited for it, and it was absolutely awful, you have to wrestle with it to perform common stuff that in other languages is done by the standard library. Again, you win something, but only in a very very VERY specific problem.

(I've used it in another project when it was the proper tool, and, in that case, it's still not the most pleasant experience, but you're getting a clear win)

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#38

Post by cia_plant »

I think the majority of programmers are very conservative about language, they use whatever they already know, be it Java, C#, C++, ruby, etc.

A minority are more fashion-driven - if something seems like the hot new trend they'll jump on it, scoffing at the old-fashioned crap their coworkers are using. Erlang unfortunately is not fashionable, and it's hard to predict or control fashion.

A smaller minority are driven by some concept of technical merit. However, once you've strayed from the safety of Java/C#/etc., it seems like you might as well go all the way and get into Haskell, which is pretty widely seen as the most advanced, mind-expanding, powerful, futuristic programming language right now, and for good reason.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#39

Post by redthrowaway »

Fun fact: I did a co-op at Ericsson in second year. I asked my interviewer (later boss) if they used Erlang at all, and she'd never heard of it. Some of the hackers in the company had a limited degree of familiarity with it, but none of the PMs/managers seemed to know what it was.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Erlang more popular?

#40

Post by nousernamesleft »

I have "tried it & stopped". I only tried it to check out webmachine, which appears to the be only web framework in existence that is not stupid and terrible. I stopped because I was done trying webmachine, and went back to my normal language that is much nicer than erlang (haskell).

I don't think my experience with erlang has anything to do with the reasons it isn't more popular though. The biggest thing I see is the lack of module/library/package management. CPAN was a big deal. It is now expected that every language have their own CPAN. I think the lack of one is a huge problem for any language, erlang being a good example. I think it is also a big reason that ocaml and haskell went from being "ocaml is the more commonly used one" to "haskell has ten times the userbase of ocaml".

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