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Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

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Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#41
post #27

What I find interesting is the fact that modafinil and caffeine ranked almost the same. I've always thought it would be interesting to try modafinil because of the widely claimed cognitive benefits and how it has less drawbacks than caffeine, but if it ranks essentially the same as caffeine, there's really no point to trying it that I can see. Caffeine doesn't really do that much to be honest. It seems as though none…

The difference between caffeine and modafinil come down to two things for me - - length of effect (caffeine seems to pick me up for had ran hour to an hour with a 30 min lead time - vs 12 hours with modafinil with a 45-1hr lead time) - side effects (if I am really tired and have to get a big day out, I might end up havering somewhere between 6-12 'doses' of coffee. Cf. 200 mg modafinil- by 3/4 through the day on the…

One other big difference, in my experience but also heard the same from others, is that caffeine makes it hard to sleep (like cocaine, etc.) whereas modafinil doesn't, it just makes you not think about the fact that you need to sleep. If you take modafinil too close to when you decide to go to bed you'll be able to go straight to sleep, even if the effects of the drug only just kicked in, which is very different to going to bed after drinking a couple of coffees or taking some coke, or other stimulants. (Of course, YMMV.)

By the way, what is 'coke mouth' - just a numb feeling? I've never felt anything from taking modafinil (though never used particularly high doses, or used particularly often). Don't know if 'coke mouth' is something else that I've never experienced?

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#42
post #13

What about Nicotine? Back in college and for a few years afterward, I used to put in a big fat dip (or chew) for all/late-nighters to help me buckle down, focus, and stay alert. I stopped for all the standard health reasons, but I find that caffeine is only about 2/3 as good.

Using nicotine gum, you can avoid the typical health hazards of tobacco products. I personally found that caffeine wasn't comparable to nicotine, the former just keeps me awake, while the latter can keep me focused and motivated for several hours.

Is nicotine gum actually not a health risk? Tobacco held in the mouth (for example Scandinavian 'snus') certainly has serious effects with long-term use, albeit they aren't exactly the same as smoking cigarettes. Gum is generally sold for short term use, so not sure if it's actually better, or just not generally used for long enough to see the effects.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#43
>One of the nootropics measured, choline bitartrate, has carefully regulated ability to cross the blood-brain barrier beyond a certain level, and so it would be surprising if it had direct and immediate cognitive effects.

This isn't quite right. This is true of choline bitartrate itself, but IIRC it is fairly quickly metabolized into other forms of choline that can cross the BBB.

I would say it's pretty likely that increasing choline intake would have a significant effect on cognition. Humans have been consuming large amounts of fish for much of our evolutionary history, compared to today's typical diet. Given the way choline is used by our brains, and the relative plethora we had available when our brains were evolving, it's hard to believe that we get as much as we can use in a modern diet.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#44

>One of the nootropics measured, choline bitartrate, has carefully regulated ability to cross the blood-brain barrier beyond a certain level, and so it would be surprising if it had direct and immediate cognitive effects. This isn't quite right. This is true of choline bitartrate itself, but IIRC it is fairly quickly metabolized into other forms of choline that can cross the BBB. I would say it's pretty likely that i…

90% of people aren't consuming enough Choline

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/21/6/LB46...

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#45
post #40

Interesting idea. Some pretty wild comments in the XLS file too. e.g. >In a tiny blind self trial I could easily tell this from placebo >I've forgotten what doses I tried. >Long lasting panic attack >Most vile substance I have tasted This guy wins though: >1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine]

>1.5 tsp brewed grounds, rectally [caffeine]

Ah yes, coffee enemas, the pinnacle of pseudoscience - and dangerous at that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_enema

Some proponents of alternative medicine have claimed that coffee enemas have an anti-cancer effect by "detoxifying" metabolic products of tumors.[4] There is no medical scientific evidence to support any anti-cancer effect of coffee enemas.[2][5][6]

Coffee enemas can cause numerous side effects, including infections, sepsis (including campylobacter sepsis), severe electrolyte imbalance, colitis, polymicrobial enteric septicemia, proctocolitis, salmonella, brain abscess, and heart failure.[4][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] If the coffee is inserted too quickly or is too hot, it could cause internal burning[14] or rectal perforation.[15] Long term use of coffee enemas can lead to malabsorption of fat, fat-soluble vitamins, and calcium.

The use of coffee enemas has led to several deaths as a result of severe electrolyte imbalance, hyponatremia, dehydration, pleural and pericardial effusions.[8][16] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has ruled that study participants must be warned of the risk of death from coffee enemas in studies that use them.[17][18]

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ask-the-science-based-ph...

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#46
post #13

What about Nicotine? Back in college and for a few years afterward, I used to put in a big fat dip (or chew) for all/late-nighters to help me buckle down, focus, and stay alert. I stopped for all the standard health reasons, but I find that caffeine is only about 2/3 as good.

Maybe you find caffeine 2/3 as good because it's not as addictive as nicotine.

Caffeine is highly addictive. It only takes a few days of use for signs of addiction to show. Cessation is just easier than nicotine.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using nicotine gum, you can avoid the typical health hazards of tobacco products. I personally found that caffeine wasn't comparable to nicotine, the former just keeps me awake, while the latter can keep me focused and motivated for several hours.

Is nicotine gum actually not a health risk? Tobacco held in the mouth (for example Scandinavian 'snus') certainly has serious effects with long-term use, albeit they aren't exactly the same as smoking cigarettes. Gum is generally sold for short term use, so not sure if it's actually better, or just not generally used for long enough to see the effects.

My understanding is that nicotine itself is not particularly carcinogenic (there are some studies indicating slight increases in tumorigenesis in conjunction with specific carcinogens, and others indicating no increases), but there are a lot of other compounds in tobacco (including chewing tobacco) that are highly carcinogenic. To my knowledge there are no studies of the carcinogenic potential of long-term nicotine replacement therapy in humans.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#48
post #11

I think you have to have certain conditions for nootropics to really do anything. I take Aniracetam and it makes a big difference in my life. I take a LOT less than most people, and the thing I notice is that I don't have songs stuck in my head. This may seem like a weird condition to be trying to get rid of but it makes a huge difference in my life and my concentration. There may be other effects, and some fuzzy met…

I've been following this topic for 20-30 years and this is the only supplement I've taken where I've felt mental state changes. Its a noticeable anxiolytic. If its not a strong one, I can only wonder at what a real strong one must feel like.

Not feeling "performance anxiety" most likely does improve performance for most people.

Where you obtain this stuff is a mystery. Amazon used to ship it, but it appears and disappears. One interesting problem is what is merely OTC in one country is prescription only in another country. This is typical for all the substances in the list. This is typical for most substances, it seems, like stevia and perhaps a hundred food dyes.

Stuff I've tried with no measurable performance gain: caffeine, piracetam (headache), creatine, vinpocetine, choline, some others. Other than occasional headache, not much effect one way or the other.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#49
post #36

What I find interesting is the fact that modafinil and caffeine ranked almost the same. I've always thought it would be interesting to try modafinil because of the widely claimed cognitive benefits and how it has less drawbacks than caffeine, but if it ranks essentially the same as caffeine, there's really no point to trying it that I can see. Caffeine doesn't really do that much to be honest. It seems as though none…

Some people are less sensitive to caffeine. Maybe you're one of those. Personally I'd like to try it, but it's prescription-only where I live...

Unless possessing prescription-only medicine is illegal where you live (doubtful), you can just order it on the internet. I don't think it's a restricted drug anywhere.

Re: Nootropics Survey Results And Analysis

#50
Okay, I have read the fine blog post (which took a while to load). The article leads off by defining nootropics as "substances which purportedly improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects when used responsibility."

The blog post author mentions a few small-n, limited duration studies, and then describes his voluntary-response survey methodology:

"I asked people in the two largest online nootropics communities (that I know of), Reddit’s r/nootropics and Longecity’s Brain Health forum, to take a survey describing their use of 31 different substances. I got 162 responses."

"Respondents were asked to rate their subjective experiences of different nootropics on a scale of zero (completely useless, did nothing) to ten (life-changing). Comments on Reddit suggest several people misunderstood the scale, but not much I can do about that at this point."

So all the data here are voluntary-response data, with the known problem of response bias[1] and other defects about which I have an entire FAQ[2] I post on HN from time to time. Worse than that, all the data are self-report data,[3] which also have plenty of problems, even when gathered in a comprehensive survey with a representative sample of the general population, because of the risks of incorrect self-reports unless checked by other data sources that are objective.[4]

The blog post author then gives a lengthy description, with pretty colored charts, of his hand-waving statistical analysis of these dubious voluntary reponse, self-report data. It would not be wise (that is, it would not be a sign of improved mental functioning) to take these conclusions seriously as a description of how nootropics work, or indeed if they work at all. The author would do well to study fundamental principles of statistics by reading the online articles "Advice to Mathematics Teachers on Evaluating Introductory Statistics Textbooks"[5] and "The Introductory Statistics Course: A Ptolemaic Curriculum?"[6] to wrap his mind around how strictly necessary it is to have a valid data-gathering plan before engaging in any statistical manipulation of the data. Garbage in, garbage out. More background on experiment design to think about while evaluating the blog post kindly submitted here can be found in the essay "Warning Signs in Experimental Design and Interpretation"[7] by Peter Norvig, LISP hacker and director of research at Google, on how to interpret scientific research.

What might big-time convince me to try out a nootropic substance would be an objective demonstration that someone with typical abilities (say, someone who goes into online discussion with a known propensity to believe what's on Reddit without checking it) can become a person with thoughtful insight (say, someone like Peter Norvig) at adult age simply by ingesting the nootropic. On my part, I like to improve mental functioning with relatively few side effects as much as anybody here, and one way I attempt to do that in middle age is by reading thoughtful articles by careful scholars and then discussing those among the learned participants on Hacker News. I'd appreciate comments from any of you about how one could know, objectively and verifiably, that a nootropic substance really does people good (even if they don't feel that themselves). I especially invite comments from participants here who have a professional understanding of statistical studies in clinical trials of new medicines.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322237

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study

[4] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15528061

http://www.wiley.com/legacy/wileychi/barker/supp/excerpt.pdf

[5] http://statland.org/MyPapers/MAAFIXED.PDF

[6] http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz

[7] http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

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