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Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

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Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#11

Post by cesare »

edu wrote: post #9
habibur wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I couldn´t disagree with you both more. I´m sorry, but webapps development can be much, much, much harder than desktopapps developement. Take into account a single parameter: scalability . Note: I expect we are talking about real app programming, and not hobbie programming.

I'm talking about professional development.

And scalability is one of the reason for which you may want to avoid frameworks.

If you're a professional you want to fully understand your data and how it is generated/modified if you want to solve both functional and load scalability issues.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#12

Post by sanswork »

cesare wrote: post #10
sanswork wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are thinking too small. For most small sites I agree that frameworks are overkill but once you get past that they become nearly essential to maintaining your code. Running a web app with even over 10KLOC without some sort of framework in place sounds like a receipt for disaster. Also frameworks do not mean you have to have code generate all your queries or stick another templating language over php. If yo…

I totally disagree. And I've made complex web apps since when CGIs in C where the only way to have dynamic generated content. In fact I think it is the contrary: for small sites (and small budgets) frameworks can be ok. For big websites custom code is a must. The idea that using a framework makes code easier to maintain is the complete opposite of my experience. Big (serious) projects require a lot of custom logic wh…

I'm not saying MVC is the only way. I've not even mentioned MVC. What I gather though is that when you hear someone mention frameworks you assume they are referring to the railish frameworks of recent. A framework to me is a set of libraries and a structure to better layout and facilitate the development of your application.

It also doesn't have to be a premade/3rd party one as you've demonstrated by essentially creating your own framework and just calling it by a different name(collection of libraries).

A recipe for disaster in my opinion would be a large project with no code structure/layout guidelines.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#13

Post by cesare »

sanswork wrote: post #12
cesare wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally disagree. And I've made complex web apps since when CGIs in C where the only way to have dynamic generated content. In fact I think it is the contrary: for small sites (and small budgets) frameworks can be ok. For big websites custom code is a must. The idea that using a framework makes code easier to maintain is the complete opposite of my experience. Big (serious) projects require a lot of custom logic wh…

I'm not saying MVC is the only way. I've not even mentioned MVC. What I gather though is that when you hear someone mention frameworks you assume they are referring to the railish frameworks of recent. A framework to me is a set of libraries and a structure to better layout and facilitate the development of your application. It also doesn't have to be a premade/3rd party one as you've demonstrated by essentially crea…

In this case, of course, I agree.

The term framework is almost exclusively used for object oriented designs. That's what I was arguing against.

Of course one should make, use and keep improving his own libraries.

And there's nothing wrong in using other people code either. Provided that it is built in a modular standalone fashion and so it can be easily included / replaced / updated / removed without breaking things.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#14

Post by edu »

cesare wrote: post #11
edu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn´t disagree with you both more. I´m sorry, but webapps development can be much, much, much harder than desktopapps developement. Take into account a single parameter: scalability . Note: I expect we are talking about real app programming, and not hobbie programming.

I'm talking about professional development. And scalability is one of the reason for which you may want to avoid frameworks. If you're a professional you want to fully understand your data and how it is generated/modified if you want to solve both functional and load scalability issues.

Sure, but I don´t want to scatter all the SQL clauses over the code. Also, what would happen when you want to modify the way the data is accessed? I.e, you want a write-through cache in front the DB?

I can agree with you if we talk about generic frameworks. I would not take none of them for a big site, or at least I would not take it as is. But I would definetivelty use a framework, either a completely custom one or a modified one.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#15

Post by akamaka »

cesare wrote: post #10
sanswork wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are thinking too small. For most small sites I agree that frameworks are overkill but once you get past that they become nearly essential to maintaining your code. Running a web app with even over 10KLOC without some sort of framework in place sounds like a receipt for disaster. Also frameworks do not mean you have to have code generate all your queries or stick another templating language over php. If yo…

I totally disagree. And I've made complex web apps since when CGIs in C where the only way to have dynamic generated content. In fact I think it is the contrary: for small sites (and small budgets) frameworks can be ok. For big websites custom code is a must. The idea that using a framework makes code easier to maintain is the complete opposite of my experience. Big (serious) projects require a lot of custom logic wh…

I accidentally downmodded you, but agree completely with your comment.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#18

Post by Zak »

This article could omit the words "PHP" and "web" until it starts listing the specific frameworks and still be valid.

I'm inclined to agree with the posts opposing the use of a generic framework for a very scalable or complex application; they're usually not for that. What frameworks ARE for is small to medium applications with low budgets.

I do some contract work on projects with budgets in the $500-2000 range. For projects like that, frameworks like Rails or Django save a lot of time over writing it in scratch (even in Lisp, which I've done a couple times).

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#19

Post by cesare »

Zak wrote: post #18

This article could omit the words "PHP" and "web" until it starts listing the specific frameworks and still be valid. I'm inclined to agree with the posts opposing the use of a generic framework for a very scalable or complex application; they're usually not for that. What frameworks ARE for is small to medium applications with low budgets. I do some contract work on projects with budgets in the $500-2000 range. For…

Exactly.

Re: Discussing PHP Frameworks: What, When, Why and Which?

#20

Post by frwdr »

asnyder wrote: post #17

There's also NOLOH ( http://www.noloh.com ), which allows you to create sophisticated web sites and web applications easily and intuitively in a single development language. Disclaimer: I'm a co-founder of NOLOH.

Wow, that's creepy. I've just been building exactly the same thing - i even used the same keywords.
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