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A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

jeffarchibald.ca

51–60 of 323 posts

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#51
post #50

Agree that the # of hours worked in a week is by no means an indication of productivity, and sometimes perhaps a product of a misaligned culture. However, I do find long hours may result out of necessity for the sheer work involved as well. Especially in the earlier days of a company, you compensate for an initial lack of resources and staff by performing multiple roles. On the business side, you could easily see you…

That sounds like one person doing the work of three or four people.

True, but in an early stage startup (<10 people), you often have to perform the roles of multiple people, which in turn may result in longer hours.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#52

I work 40 hours a week at maximum - most weeks I work about 34 to 38 hours. You 80 hours a week guys, what the hell are you doing with your time? Are you divorced? No family? No friends? Is 'disrupting' an industry really that important to you?

My name is Rick and I'm a 80 hour a week guy.

I'm 26, single, and have no pets. I have a family and friends, but I'm very transparent about my work habits and priorities as a full-stack engineer.

Being so young, I see myself as training to be the person I want to be in the future. The best programmers in the world worked at it relentlessly. Sure, there are variances in the amount that they all worked, and some did it with much less work than others. But if I want to be the best in the world, or at least attain my personal upper bound, I have to work hard at it and I have to work consistently at it.

John Resig didn't wake up one day and write jQuery. Steve Wozniak didn't just throw together the Apple I. Linus didn't just decide to write the Linux kernel one afternoon. They all put to work the investments they made in themselves.

I don't do it because I want money, success, or fame. I do it because I deeply want to make a meaningful impact on the world. I want it so bad that when I think about it my palms sweat and my chest gets heavy. When you look at the future of humanity as a whole, we need to either improve or die. And to improve, we need improvers. I want to be an improver and I don't want to rest until I am.

To be clear, I love what I do and I don't really consider it work. Solving hard problems with creative techniques is one of my favorite things to do. I really enjoy learning new things, and being able to pull them into my work is really satisfying. Being able to build something that I imagine, push it out to people, and see them get excited about it is surreal. I don't want to be doing anything else. I don't want to stop working.

But I understand the research. I understand that the work I put in will be more productive and beneficial to me if I have a balance in all areas of my life--which means that I need to be social, have hobbies, and live a healthy lifestyle.

So I've aligned my life such that those interactions still help me reach my upper bound. My friends are smarter than I am and many are in technical fields so getting a beer with them involves talking about a hard problem we solved. My hobbies include writing StackOverflow posts, trying out new frameworks, and reading books like Thinking, Fast and Slow, RabbitMQ in Action, and Secrets of the Javascript Ninja. I truly enjoy and am satisfied with these parts of my life, even though I'm never really leaving the mindset of work.

One day I want to write those books, not just read them, and I want those books to meaningfully impact the world. So I train, and that means I'm an 80 hours a week guy.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#53
post #44

I wonder if the author would give the same advice to famous workaholics like Paul Erdos? Here's my issue: I'm an entrepreneur. Doing a startup is my dream. I'm having fun and creating amazing memories. I work as much as I possibly can. Stopping me from working on my startup is like keeping a child locked in a room. I don't force my team to do the same (and they don't). I don't brag about it, I am not burning out, not…

I'm also an entrepreneur. It's the best job I've ever had. Back in the day, I was a salaryman. A Japanese megacorp owned me body and soul. If you had asked me, during much of those three years, whether I was overworked, I would have told you no. Seventy hours was surely not more than many salarymen worked, and anyhow, I had just had a nice relaxing 50 hour week only... what month is it again? I would have described m…

Hi Patrick!! Big fan!! cough

I am indeed very much aware I am running on unreliable hardware. My evaluation of my productivity comes from reviewing things done in micro and macro scale, as well as feedback from people around me. Seeing my HN history from PhD years to Startup years is night and day. I've even installed RescueTime to get a better idea of how I spend my time. I try to get as much external data as possible, always happy to apply any other (sensible) metric you (or others) can suggest.

But keep in mind these same considerations hold for everyone claiming they're super-productive in 40 hours a week.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#54
post #22

Who the fuck brags about this? Who the fuck thinks this is a good thing? This happened to me recently. More than 70h per week. But that's not. The fact of the matter is, I was the sole programmer on the product and the product is so attached to me that if it fails, I fail. I don't see it that way, but the employees at the place I work at do. The clients who were brought in to meet me, do.

That's actually an interesting problem at work. How do you actually distance yourself from the project?

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#55

I work 40 hours a week at maximum - most weeks I work about 34 to 38 hours. You 80 hours a week guys, what the hell are you doing with your time? Are you divorced? No family? No friends? Is 'disrupting' an industry really that important to you?

It isn't about disrupting an industry. It's about money.

Only if working more hours means making more money. In my experience that simply isn't true. Your output at 80 hours isn't double. After a couple of weeks of that it's probably actually worse.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#56
This false dichotomy is seriously getting annoying. If 60 hours is sustainable for you, do it. If only 30 hours is sustainable for you, do that instead. But stop imposing onto others what is right or wrong when there are so many factors at play.

Some of my most productive memories are summers studying and working for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week (= 72 hours). I didn't get tired, burned out, or anything. Another summer had me working at a company making "apps" for 40 hours a week, and it fucking drained me... despite taking far less intelligence and brain effort. I suppose that's not true, the brain effort was constantly justifying why I wasn't quitting haha.

Regarding friends/partners/etc. If the amount of hours you want to work isn't compatible with your partner's expectations... get a new partner. Seriously. Your priorities aren't aligned. I don't know what I'd do if my partner expected me to be home for dinner at 6pm on weeknights... Oh wait I do, I'd get a new partner, which I did. Now everyone involved (myself, previous partner, new partner) are very happy.

Finally regarding productivity vs. hours put in. Again, this is completely irrelevant if you're following the right metrics - results. Long hours obviously don't make sense if they're making you too tired to deliver results. If you're delivering but not in a sustainable way, well, you need to calibrate and lower expectations so you don't under deliver.

In short, people should optimize for long-term productivity appropriate to their goals. This, combined with your unique physiology and work circumstances, will dictate how many hours you should work. Oh and definitely exercise every week.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#57

I wonder if the author would give the same advice to famous workaholics like Paul Erdos? Here's my issue: I'm an entrepreneur. Doing a startup is my dream. I'm having fun and creating amazing memories. I work as much as I possibly can. Stopping me from working on my startup is like keeping a child locked in a room. I don't force my team to do the same (and they don't). I don't brag about it, I am not burning out, not…

I respect you and your work ethic, even if it isn't for me. I do have one thing I'd like to add a general comment on, even if it doesn't pertain to you:

> I don't force my team to do the same (and they don't).

For anyone who does work at all hours, before and after the traditional workday, I would just kindly remind you to be cognizant of the messages you send to your team if you're firing off emails and sending other work products every other night at 10pm and every morning at 5am. While you don't mind doing it for yourself, and externally you tell everyone you don't expect the same, it does begin to put informal social pressure on everyone else. This is particularly true if one or more employees start responding/emulating those odd-hour communications, out of drive or a sense of unspoken obligation, which pushes everyone else into a "I do this but you don't have to [but really you should wink wink]" situation. Even if people don't match behavior, it can lead to stress.

In short: be aware of the pressure your behavior can send irrespective of your words, in light of your position of authority.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#58
post #44

I wonder if the author would give the same advice to famous workaholics like Paul Erdos? Here's my issue: I'm an entrepreneur. Doing a startup is my dream. I'm having fun and creating amazing memories. I work as much as I possibly can. Stopping me from working on my startup is like keeping a child locked in a room. I don't force my team to do the same (and they don't). I don't brag about it, I am not burning out, not…

I'm also an entrepreneur. It's the best job I've ever had. Back in the day, I was a salaryman. A Japanese megacorp owned me body and soul. If you had asked me, during much of those three years, whether I was overworked, I would have told you no. Seventy hours was surely not more than many salarymen worked, and anyhow, I had just had a nice relaxing 50 hour week only... what month is it again? I would have described m…

[deleted]

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#59
post #38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The thing is, people who make say $120k/year but work 80h weeks, are at exactly the same level of compensation / status / respect as people who work 40h but make $60k/year. This applies to salaried or consulting professionals of course; if you're working your ass off to build your own business and maybe hit big rewards in the future, it's a sensible choice. Otherwise, you're just busting your health and pers…

They're the same per hour, but the absolute amount of money is still different. If you value 40 extra hours less than 60k, and you can somehow stay productive, there's no reason not to take the job that pays more money.

There are plenty of jobs that ask for 40 hours and pay 120k, and they don't have that much more status. (I'm not saying they're common, but they're not that rare either.) If you're talking 300k+ for that 80/week, then it might be worth it at that point, if you can get the job.

Re: A 60-Hour Work Week is Not a Badge of Honour

#60
Same as with anything else in life, really. Take fitness for example- I hear guys bragging about how hard their routine is, how they train every day till exhaustion. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. Trying to constantly be busy with something is a form of laziness if you think about it. It means not doing the things that really make the difference- those annoying ones, the ones we always leave for later.
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