this is pointless. star trek describes no real society and ther are conyinuity holes everywhere from multiple series, writers and directors. a nice dream but in no way deployable.
The Star Trek Economy
81–90 of 240 posts
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#82You don't need to speculate because there already is a model for post-scarcity economics in the form of free and open source software. The free software economy is more like an economy of attention or allegiance. It has sometimes been called a "doocracy" in that those folks who do things tend to get the most attention.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> [ capitalism's] current income inequality problems I will assume you talk about the income inequality between nations. That is, in most cases, not solvable by other countries. To make a country (without military conflicts) better is not rocket science. You get infrastructure and education to work well in addition to limiting corruption. The corruption part is probably enough, since non-corrupt politicians will fix…
First you say that this problem can't be helped by other countries and then you discuss the EU's eastward expansion... which is largeely about Western European countries getting together and lifting up ex-Soviet countries. The terms under which those countries were allowed into the EU were largely about building strong anti-corruption measures and improving transparency in government. Supernational institutions like…
>>and then you discuss
Starting with "For examples of this".
>>Supernational institutions like the EU and UN can do great things like this.
Well, give me some examples where corruption of a political system was solved by external organisations?
(And NOT in a military way.)
(The main benefit East Europe got was a pressure to conform with EU criteria to get into the trade union. That solved quite a lot, by paying the political leadership to solve their problems... This can only be done once. But Romania and Bulgaria got into EU without fulfilling those criteria, probably by bribing for the EU votes (as I understand it, a few large companies were sold cheap to French, Belgian etc companies). So corruption worked for them... not even here, with a big carrot, was it solved by the EU!)
Edit: I might add that the UN is infamously corrupt and many functions are taken over by dictators, working for their combined interests. (If you're Swedish, you won't read about that in your local media.) Hardly able to help anyone with corruption...
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#84One capitalist hybrid which does not distort the market is a free market with a basic income [1], i.e. an unconditional income as a right of being a citizen. At what level - survival, comfort, or luxury - the income is set is an open question to each society. Too high and scarcity erupts in the form of inflation, too low and inequality and populism corrode the society. Post-scarcity economics is more the study of loc…
What is this "basic income" you speak of?
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#85So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…
"Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward."
Actually I think the problem is that they don't have an efficient way to allocate resources. That's what markets do.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#86The Volokh Conspiracy post, How Federal is Star Trek's Federation?, was probably the best thing I've read on Trek's political economy. http://www.volokh.com/posts/1190182117.shtml
Great link!
One thing that always bothered me about The Federation was how they treated certain worlds and members.
Recall the TNG episode Journey's End where the Enterprise is sent to remove what amounted to some 'Space Native Americans' from a planet the Federation had given to Cardassians in a treaty. The inhabitants in question were members of the Federation (with all the rights that was supposed to confer) but they were (going to be) forced off the planet. The only way they could stay on their planet was to give in to the treaty and make themselves inhabitants of what was then a Cardassian planet (and arguably Cardassian property).
Then there is the TNG movie Insurrection. Where a group of settlers who are not Federation citizens were going to be transported off of their planet against their will. But Picard decides that they deserve to stay on the planet so the Enterprise destroys the Federation/alien ships that were sent to do the relocation (among other things and aliens).
So why is it the Federation wont fight for actual Federation members, but they will fight for some random civilization because of 'reasons'?
Ok I'm done with my Star Trek rant and feel like a terrible nerd now. Thank you for letting me vent and for the link. Nerd gland expressed.
Edit: For a laugh Google the Red Letter Media Harry Plinket review of Insurrection which goes deeper into this.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#87I'm not well versed in Star Trek, but it seems to me there is at least one limited resource: jobs as captains of star ship Enterprise, for instance.
Another resource that will probably always be limited: attractive mates. I think that is a good example to think about when you think about Utopia. Of course plastic surgery will be free, too, as well as psychotherapy, so perhaps we all can be perfect mates, too.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep. Aside from the fact that Star Trek economics make no sense simply because there have been several ideological shifts in its fundamental nature over the last 50 years, this is by far the best and most obvious answer to any question of why there are still people flying around in spaceships. Post-scarcity doesn't mean post-danger. No one has to do luge in the Winter Olympics to survive, and not more than 4 years ag…
Yep. This means that when the Federation media covers the battle of Wolf 359 (11k dead, worst military disaster in centuries) it probably caused a brief flurry of controversy leavened with "Well at least they died doing what they loved: live-action role playing" and then it promptly went back to more interesting topics like which pop stars had just broken up. It naturally follows that Earth was never in serious dange…
If there is some day in the future where wars/battles are fought because the people involved were doing what they love which is LARPing... I'd be a very happy and amused person.
That is a beautiful, beautiful thought and plot device for a Sci-Fi book. Thank you for placing that into my mind.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#89So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…
If a job someone doesn't want to do pays well enough, it becomes a job someone wants to do. See: Working in $expensiveCity, banker, lawyer, jobs requiring lots of travel, etc. If the lack of available workers pushes the pay up, more people consider the previously undesirable job desirable again and start learning the requisite skills if applicable, increasing the candidate pool and pushing pay back down - in this way…
Cities are generally expensive because they are desirable places to live; that there are jobs available is only part of that.
Re: The Star Trek Economy
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good take, but the Enterprises have save the Federation from destruction on multiple occasions. With out them the Federation would have been assimilated, enslaved by the Klingons, destroyed by meglomanic advanced alien AIs...
I'm really enjoying patio11's really irreverant take on the subject, but it's not really necessary that their work be completely useless to support the thesis. Self-actualized people may perform useful work as well. But it's also possible that robots have saved the Federation as many times as human-captained ships. I'd rather believe this than that it's because of the spirit-killing Section 31 being sneaky assholes b…
Bringing up Section 31 is a good pull!
There are many enemies in the universe so Star Fleet is important. To name a few there are The Borg, The Makers, The Cardassians, The Romulans, And even the Klingons who are federation members.
War-like cultures would still exist even if the Federation believes they themselves have moved beyond that type of thing.