Live data from Hacker News

The Star Trek Economy

medium.com

51–60 of 240 posts

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#51
post #5
post #2

It's worth emphasising that a great deal of work in unnecessary for improving net happiness and consumes resources in the process and so undermines long term prosperity.

A heretical thought I have had about Star Trek: the Federation has no need for Star Fleet. They're fantastically wealthy and cannot meaningfully gain from trade in physical items. They're not just singularity-esque wealthy relative to the present-day US, they're equally more secure. Nobody kills mass numbers of Federation citizens. That occasionally happens on poor planets elsewhere. Sucks but hey poverty sucks. So w…

> Because Jean Luc Picard is a Federation citizen, and he wouldn't be happy as other than a starship captain.

There are strong hints in Iain M Banks' Culture series that a significant portion of the mission of Contact and Special Circumstances is giving humans with a pathological need for conflict and excitement something to do to keep them happy.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#52

I like the exercise and the thoughts developed, but all of it is based on the fact that a post-scarcity state is happening. This is very XIXth century like : "science will abolish work !". A proof of post-scarcity happening presented is the amount of obesity in US. Let just pretend obesity is just a problem of having too much food, and not at all a problem of bad nutrition or genetics. The fact still remains that whi…

Scarcity is rooted in social rank, it is a (by) product of psychology, and politics, not strictly speaking economics. Someone has to have the corner office, date the homecoming queen, and be the ranking executive. This is true outside of markets...just look at...firms. That's the unfortunate dead-end of this type of thought experiment. Although, I otherwise applaud its focus on interesting phenomenon. Because in many ways the ~premise is likely true: we can feed, cloth and shelter the world with only a small subset of working primates doing the "work". What we can't do...is give everyone the best house in the neighborhood, the choicest cuts of meats, and the most attractive partners. But that latter bit of ~scarcity is true...logically. Empirically it is an observation independent of the the proposed explanatory variable (economic system X^). Its not the x^, but the physics of life that creates scarcity. At least when sociological factors are considered.[1]

Edit: [1] See, for example, the notion of 'hedonic adaptation'.

Evidence of this also exists as ~shadow 'fairness' principles, in non-human primates, and also observable in domesticated canines.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#53

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…

You describe life in the rich west. It's not looking as rosy for most people.

It'll be interesting to see how the perception of capitalsm's problems shifts as we wade towards the deeper end of the climate crisis. Will human suffering invoke more actionable empathy when it's in the form of agricultural collapse vs current income inequality problems?

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#54

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…

> Capitalism rewards not just work and the investment of capital but also greed and cheating.

That implies that socialism and communism do not reward greed and cheating, which is hard to believe.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#55
post #52

I like the exercise and the thoughts developed, but all of it is based on the fact that a post-scarcity state is happening. This is very XIXth century like : "science will abolish work !". A proof of post-scarcity happening presented is the amount of obesity in US. Let just pretend obesity is just a problem of having too much food, and not at all a problem of bad nutrition or genetics. The fact still remains that whi…

Scarcity is rooted in social rank, it is a (by) product of psychology, and politics, not strictly speaking economics. Someone has to have the corner office, date the homecoming queen, and be the ranking executive. This is true outside of markets...just look at...firms. That's the unfortunate dead-end of this type of thought experiment. Although, I otherwise applaud its focus on interesting phenomenon. Because in many…

> What we can't do...is give everyone the best house in the neighborhood

I think that we can, because land is plentiful, and construction can soon be automated. True, not everyone will be able to live in city centres, but given that most people come to the cities only for work, if there is no need to work, many would probably prefer to live in villages and close to nature.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#56
post #55
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarcity is rooted in social rank, it is a (by) product of psychology, and politics, not strictly speaking economics. Someone has to have the corner office, date the homecoming queen, and be the ranking executive. This is true outside of markets...just look at...firms. That's the unfortunate dead-end of this type of thought experiment. Although, I otherwise applaud its focus on interesting phenomenon. Because in many…

> What we can't do...is give everyone the best house in the neighborhood I think that we can, because land is plentiful, and construction can soon be automated. True, not everyone will be able to live in city centres, but given that most people come to the cities only for work, if there is no need to work, many would probably prefer to live in villages and close to nature.

the guy whose house is next to a beautiful lake, or a nice beach will look the best compared with everyone else. It's true that there will be someone who's gotten the best.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#57

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…

> Capitalism rewards not just work and the investment of capital but also greed and cheating. That implies that socialism and communism do not reward greed and cheating, which is hard to believe.

In fact by concentrating strict monopolies on political, military, judicial and economic power in a narrow party elite, it pretty much guarantees it will be rewarded. I realize Communism and Socialism as abstract principles don't require this, but that seems to be the way it works out as they have been put into practice historically by actual Communists and Socialists.

There's nothing about capitalism that demands that monopolies of any kind should or must be allowed. This is a subject of much debate of course, since there is no single authority about what Capitalism is. It's not really an ideology in that sense. However if we take Adam Smith as playing the role for Capitalism that Marx plays for Communism, Smith was very much aware the markets must be very carefully regulated in order to protect the common good. Unfortunately Marx was, shall we say, considerably more utopian about how Communism would inevitably emerge and self-regulate itself.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#58

So, economic models are more or less based on, or at least constrained by, human psychology, right? Communism and socialism don't work because peoples' brains aren't wired to do lots of work for little or no or unequal reward. This isn't restricted to just people, either, it's been observed in monkeys ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0917_030917_... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKhAd0Tyny0 -- it…

> Capitalism rewards not just work and the investment of capital but also greed and cheating. That implies that socialism and communism do not reward greed and cheating, which is hard to believe.

It's easy to exaggerate ones needs and hide ones abilities.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#59
The fundamental take-away here is that old systems die, whether proponents of the old system believe it's possible or not. I think parallels can be drawn between a lot of articles written by people so deeply embedded in the status quo they literally can't fathom their pet concept might go away at some point in the future. And sure enough, this one is written by a venture capitalist.

Of course, a post-scarcity world is inherently incomprehensible to people who are economists, in much the same way a rational world motivated by ethics is incomprehensible to a religious person. The first sign of this is vocabulary, they'll insist on a "post scarcity economy" or a "religion of science" respectively. While it's probably true that there will always be aspects of supply and demand, and it's likely also true that people will always believe in certain ideas, it's really questionable if these terms as they're being used still mean anything.

These word choices are a subconscious expression of the perceived impossibility of an idea. For example, a world with (almost) no manual labor. Or a world where things are so abundant that for practical purposes of daily life there is no shortage of supply.

When looking at Star Trek it's first and foremost important to keep in mind that these are stories intended to entertain. As such it's moot to try and incorporate every episode of every show into some kind of big common canon. The issue is not whether "Federation Credits" (must) exist, the trick here is to look at the broader concept presented.

There are scientific indications that the general idea of the Star Trek "economy" is valid. When a civilization gets access to advanced robotics, the ability to mine entire star systems for resources, and advanced 3d printers, it generates a setting that pretty much speaks for itself. The interesting aspect here is that this state of affairs is very likely in the cards for humanity's future.

Of course, there are extremely strong aspects of our society still prominent in Star Trek. This is grossly unrealistic, but probably necessary for storytelling purposes. For example, DS9 was really out of touch with the in-universe realities of manufacturing and labor, but it made for some pretty awesome stories.

I believe in the future we have a choice to make when it comes to scarcity, and the battle lines are already drawn today. People who are invested in the status quo will not only tell everyone it's impossible but they will go to great lengths in keeping scarcity alive. Artificial scarcity perpetrated by big powerful players is already a big staple in today's system, and that's only going to get more audacious with growing technical capabilities. I think a good argument could be made that this will lead to horrific social and economic pathologies, and it probably already has.

The big reason the alternatives are scary to a lot of people is not just because they fear a loss of traditional values and social cohesion. It's scary to them because this kind of future is inherently experimental and so far doesn't seem to yield itself to planning from on-high. This means there will most likely be a huge loss of power and influence in the turmoils ahead and it's going to be very difficult to port existing power structures to that new kind of society.

Whether this fundamental transformation is even stoppable in the long run is an open question. There are certainly scenarios imaginable where we just stagnate instead of moving on. It's also not inconceivable that the human civilization might fracture and split up into different groups pursuing their own trajectories - and at least one of them might elect to keep scarcity alive indefinitely.

Re: The Star Trek Economy

#60

I think this is a useless exercise. The economics of Star Trek won't be coherent, because it was pieced together through multiple series and some wishful thinking while retaining certain properties needed for the universe to be interesting. You can't have a TV show about drone ships flying around and beaming back exploration data via subspace. Without Star Trek replicators in the foreseeable future, all the 3d printi…

"Limes inferior" by Janusz Zajdel (1982) is also very interesting. Sci-fi in a post scarcity world where stupid are provided for, and smart are forced to work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_inferior

Author came up with Identity theft, spoofing, NFC, all while living in communist state in the eighties.

Post reply on HN