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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

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Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#171

Post by xenophanes »

einhverfr wrote: post #147
saalweachter wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't give two shits what Thomas Szasz thought about mental illness, because he wasn't a scientist or even a doctor, he was a goddamn libertarian philosopher . He found mental illness philosophically inconvenient because he couldn't see a way around the State being morally justified in providing coercive treatment to the mentally ill, so he just decided they didn't exist. He was an asshole who spent sixty years shi…

At the same time, I think it is inescapable, when studying how different cultures look at mental health and mental illness to see this as something which culturally constructed. Personality disorders for example, or ODD, or the like can only be thought of as disorders of inconvenient personality traits and therefore the way mental illness has always been used, and in the historical context, there is a very dark side…

> 1. Mental illness, to the extent it exists, is objective and quantifiable.

> 2. Social context is irrelevant to mental health.

> 3. Therefore mental health is an individual issue.

None of those are positions Szasz holds. The first two are just kind or ridiculous – he said contrary things, a lot. They are pretty opposite to his actual positions. For the third, he is pro-individualist but the "therefore" is wrong, and also the topic "mental health" includes things like the insanity defense which aren't just an individual issue.

Your supposed anti-libertarian insights are basically correct – but Szasz already knew them and wrote about them.

Of course what is labelled "mentally ill" depends on the social context, rather than being objective. That was a major point Szasz made. Have you read his books?

> Obviously there are times when this is needed.

Here, where you advocate coercion, you have an actual disagreement with me and Szasz. This, not your points 1-3, is your basic disagreement with Szasz. It's the standard disagreement most people have: they favor coercion, he and I do not.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#172

Post by mikeash »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #166
mikeash wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. You can have an idea of the general area where the cause lies without knowing precisely what it is. For example, there are clear genetic factors in mental illness, which can be seen in the same way that genetic factors for any disease are studies. This doesn't tell you which genes cause it, let alone how they cause it, but it still tells you that it's a biological thing.

There are not. There are no conclusive genes or genetic markers for depression. All that is required for someone to be depressed is to self-report as depressed and experiencing those symptoms.

Just because the specific gene hasn't been identified doesn't mean it isn't known to have genetic factors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Cause...

"In addition, a Swedish study estimated the heritability of depression—the degree to which individual differences in occurrence are associated with genetic differences—to be around 40% for women and 30% for men...."

You seem to think that we must either know the exact cause, or we know nothing about the cause. That is simply not true.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#173

Post by wavefunction »

EMRo wrote: post #26
Mz wrote: post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

He did. Thank you for sharing your story. I wish I had been there for him when he needed me like your sons can be there for you.

The best actors in the world are the depressed. No one who knows me knows how many times I have almost died. I say this in the hopes that it helps with the hurt a bit, though losing your brother never goes away. I lost mine to a motorcycle accident when a driver got impatient with traffic.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#174

Post by joesmo »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #113
l33tbro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill people.

Well, that's part of the problem, the idea that you need a formal background to help a depressed person at all, and that the rest of us should go hands-off and pretend it isn't happening. Sometimes just knowing that someone cares can help. It's not universal, it's not a cure, but it is something.

Couldn't agree more. Not only is it part of the problem, the so called mental health "professionals" are hardly qualified to help themselves. For all their education, they're no better than anyone else at preventing tragedy or helping others. The only thing they are better at is fooling people into thinking that they are professionals at all. This is a sad story, but as it states at the beginning, Stephen tried to call and talk to the hospital and other "professionals." If these people had any training that qualified them to provide help that laypeople don't, they would have helped. In fact, I'd go as far to say that someone who is not a professional is more likely to help because they might genuinely care for something more than money, something a professional trains not to care about.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#175

Post by [deleted] »

einhverfr wrote: post #161
doktrin wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I.e. why do you assume that what is socially constructed can't be real? I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real". > The question is, really, what goes into the experience and what are the limits to the current science. If it is socially constructed, the science is limited to the current cultural context. I honestly don't know what you…

> I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real". That's a complicated question. I probably would not say pneumonia is socially constructed. I would say that health insurance is, just like any other contract. > I honestly don't know what you're trying to say. Ok. Let's try again. The science of mental health, like all science, rests on assump…

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#176

Post by doktrin »

einhverfr wrote: post #161
doktrin wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I.e. why do you assume that what is socially constructed can't be real? I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real". > The question is, really, what goes into the experience and what are the limits to the current science. If it is socially constructed, the science is limited to the current cultural context. I honestly don't know what you…

> I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real". That's a complicated question. I probably would not say pneumonia is socially constructed. I would say that health insurance is, just like any other contract. > I honestly don't know what you're trying to say. Ok. Let's try again. The science of mental health, like all science, rests on assump…

That's a cogent explanation. I can see where you're coming from, and I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate.

> This problem is manageable in the physical sciences but it is totally unmanageable when studying the human condition. The problem is that people exist in a social context and that is formative regarding the brain. Therefore, if you are studying mental health of middle class Americans, you have no real expectation that the findings will be perfectly applicable to, say, the aborigines in Australia.

That's reasonable.

> This has some important ramifications. It means that the science can never tell us how culture fits into mental illness. The science has to start off with a assumptions about mental health and illness that are by definition cultural. These definitions and assumptions are not beyond question, and therefore the conclusions one can draw from the science is limited culturally, temporally, and geographically.

I agree.

Your more verbose argument is reasonable and sound, and yet I find it inconsistent with your original statement.

Specifically :

"the conclusions one can draw from the science is limited culturally, temporally, and geographically"

vs.

"mental illness is socially constructed"

Perhaps I'm interpreting it too literally, but I can't find the evidence supporting that strong assertion.

For instance, most of the literature I could find does agree that there is a biochemical basis for schizophrenia. The literature also agrees that how it manifests, including prognosis and rates of remission, differs across cultures. Thus, it seems reasonable to state that certain beliefs regarding mental health are social constructs - but if there is a physical basis for the expression of the disease I don't see how it can be said that it itself is socially constructed.

For any interested, there's an interesting NYT piece on the subject[1]

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html?p...

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#177

Post by jacalata »

hrkristian wrote: post #132
l33tbro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill people.

Depression doesn't really need a qualified person. You're not talking to a mentally ill person, at least not in the sense that you cannot spring a bolt in a depressed person's mind and have him go on a killing spree. The blue sticker says you'll happily talk, and also listen if they have something profound to get off their chest. That's really the important part, it's not about giving advice.

Most 'mental illness' is completely unrelated to 'likely to go on a killing spree' and this kind of ignorant crap supports exactly the kind of stigma that prevents people getting help.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#178

Post by dreamdu5t »

mikeash wrote: post #172
dreamdu5t wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are not. There are no conclusive genes or genetic markers for depression. All that is required for someone to be depressed is to self-report as depressed and experiencing those symptoms.

Just because the specific gene hasn't been identified doesn't mean it isn't known to have genetic factors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Cause... "In addition, a Swedish study estimated the heritability of depression—the degree to which individual differences in occurrence are associated with genetic differences—to be around 40% for women and 30% for men...." You seem to think that we must ei…

No, I think psychology has medicalized a range of normal emotions and behaviors, like sadness and anger for example, and that there is not necessarily any such disease as depression. I know that's not PC and some may find that shocking, but it's pretty plausible when you look at the history of psychology.

Since I've already crossed the PC/shocking line... It's amazing the similarities between SSRI's and lobotomy. The mechanism of action isn't fully understood, yet some people are improved, and some people are made worse, and everyone has side effects. It was considered a breakthrough at first, then followed by controversy as people began to question the mechanism of action, the ethics of forced surgery (forced drugging) etc.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#179

Post by btmorex »

camus2 wrote: post #122
Mz wrote: post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

My brother committed suicide. He died for nothing,and nobody in the family even knows why he died. 10 years later, I feel like I dont care he died anymore, I just cant feel sorry for people committing suicide, it accomplishes nothing,except destroying a family ,making relatives feel guilty all their life. Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do, that's my opinion.

I'm sorry you cannot feel compassion or empathy for your brother. From personal experience, it makes it much easier if not understandable.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#180

Post by thaumaturgy »

mhenr18 wrote: post #149
thaumaturgy wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me , it seems to be multi-faceted. There's definitely some kind of mood swing component that seems entirely biological; regardless of whether things are going well in life or not, there are periods of between a week and sometimes as long as a month where I simply have difficulty getting up in the morning, focusing, socializing, and maintaining healthy habits like regular exercise. Usually my sugar consumption sky…

Man, the mood swing part rings true for me. In my case they're usually 1-2 weeks. There's some anxiety/depression on my mother's side of the family but I wouldn't say that I've got any issues with it. Now I'm curious as to whether the mood swings are more common, or whether that's actually something I should look into. If there is an underlying issue I need to resolve then it might have been masked by my relatively g…

It can worsen (or improve) with age or biology. If you can, it could be worth finding a doctor you trust and talking to them about it, and try to determine whether it needs to be addressed or not.
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