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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

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161–170 of 248 posts

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the logical basis for this pair of assertions? How can the "experience" be real while the illness is not? What is the difference in value between a $5 bill and a $20 bill? Is this difference not both real and socially constructed? I.e. why do you assume that what is socially constructed can't be real? The question is, really, what goes into the experience and what are the limits to the current science. If it…

> I.e. why do you assume that what is socially constructed can't be real? I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real". > The question is, really, what goes into the experience and what are the limits to the current science. If it is socially constructed, the science is limited to the current cultural context. I honestly don't know what you…

> I'm assuming you wouldn't say "pneumonia is socially constructed". If you did, I would read that as "pneumonia isn't real".

That's a complicated question. I probably would not say pneumonia is socially constructed. I would say that health insurance is, just like any other contract.

> I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.

Ok. Let's try again.

The science of mental health, like all science, rests on assumptions which are basically unscientific aspects of our cultural worldview. The creation of scientific theories is, after all, a creative endeavor and one cannot separate the unscientific assumptions that go into interpreting the data from the theory (see Heisenberg, "Physics and Philosophy").

Now, when studying things like physics this is a significant problem. We have multiple "true" theories which are ontologically and mathematically incompatible (see for example quantum mechanics and general relativity). This works in the physical sciences because truth is given a limited meaning, namely something that has predictive value. Thus two propositions can be both true, scientifically, even of they both can't be true logically. A simple way to paraphrase this is that scientific theories are merely models of behavior and are true to the extent that the model's behavior matches the observed behavior, but do not imply any deeper truth than that. (This is exactly parallel to correlation vs causation. Just because the behavior correlates does not mean that the model functions exactly like the modelled.)

This problem is manageable in the physical sciences but it is totally unmanageable when studying the human condition. The problem is that people exist in a social context and that is formative regarding the brain. Therefore, if you are studying mental health of middle class Americans, you have no real expectation that the findings will be perfectly applicable to, say, the aborigines in Australia.

This has some important ramifications. It means that the science can never tell us how culture fits into mental illness. The science has to start off with a assumptions about mental health and illness that are by definition cultural. These definitions and assumptions are not beyond question, and therefore the conclusions one can draw from the science is limited culturally, temporally, and geographically.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without sounding insensitive, may I ask what it is - that you think - that is at the root of this stripe of depression that you seem to be well acquainted with. I know that this sort of thing cannot be easily summed up. However, most of us on the outside have little clue about what sets these things in motion, for various individuals, in the first place. Broadly and typically, is it a fundamental disillusionment with…

Mental illness is a physical disease, not something to do with "disillusionment" or anything like that. Depressed people can be disillusioned, of course, but that is a symptom , not a cause . The cause is still somewhat mysterious, but it's biological, physical, not an attitude thing.

According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That's pretty contradictory.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental illness is a physical disease, not something to do with "disillusionment" or anything like that. Depressed people can be disillusioned, of course, but that is a symptom , not a cause . The cause is still somewhat mysterious, but it's biological, physical, not an attitude thing.

According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That's pretty contradictory.

No it's not. You can have an idea of the general area where the cause lies without knowing precisely what it is.

For example, there are clear genetic factors in mental illness, which can be seen in the same way that genetic factors for any disease are studies. This doesn't tell you which genes cause it, let alone how they cause it, but it still tells you that it's a biological thing.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#164
post #122
post #24

I get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My…

My brother committed suicide. He died for nothing,and nobody in the family even knows why he died. 10 years later, I feel like I dont care he died anymore, I just cant feel sorry for people committing suicide, it accomplishes nothing,except destroying a family ,making relatives feel guilty all their life. Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do, that's my opinion.

I used to think the same thing. I have never been suicidal so I don't know from personal experience, but I recall reading something that helped me understand suicide as something more than self-absorption. That the pain of deep depression is so real and intense that it can be compared to physical pain, and when it gets strong enough, simply ending it becomes its own imperative. That suicide is like jumping from a burning building - it's hardly even a choice, the pain compels the body to do it.

Some additional reading material that might help inspire some compassion, also both good and entertaining reads in their own right:

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-...

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/features/2010/12/20/101220f...

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#165
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother committed suicide. He died for nothing,and nobody in the family even knows why he died. 10 years later, I feel like I dont care he died anymore, I just cant feel sorry for people committing suicide, it accomplishes nothing,except destroying a family ,making relatives feel guilty all their life. Suicide is the most selfish thing one can do, that's my opinion.

Would you be saying that if he died of cancer instead of mental illness? People have this bizarre idea that mental illness somehow doesn't "count". That you have to fight it, and that if you lose, it's your own fault. You are, right here, blaming the victim of the disease. Your brother died from a mental illness. It killed him, just as surely as cancer or a heart attack might have killed him. You'd never, ever, ever…

People disagree with that perspective because it implies that the brain is entirely deterministic biologically and has no plasticity. That you have no mental control over your physiology. That you don't have control over your attitude and outlook, etc.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That's pretty contradictory.

No it's not. You can have an idea of the general area where the cause lies without knowing precisely what it is. For example, there are clear genetic factors in mental illness, which can be seen in the same way that genetic factors for any disease are studies. This doesn't tell you which genes cause it, let alone how they cause it, but it still tells you that it's a biological thing.

There are not. There are no conclusive genes or genetic markers for depression. All that is required for someone to be depressed is to self-report as depressed and experiencing those symptoms.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't appreciate the implication that I'm not a person. Xenophanes posted the link to this discussion to a public email list where (you may find this shocking), some people agree with him and are interested in this kind of discussion. He also mentioned that HN is blocking him from posting more, so maybe you can blame Paul Graham for you not getting the answers you wanted. But there's still hope. Want answers? Want…

Does the person behind Xenophanes consider each of their online identities to be a "person"? Nice dodge with that choice of word. It's easier to claim that a fake online identity is a person than it is to claim that a fake online identity is a human. > Want a discussion where you won't be punished if you say "What You Can't Say"[0], as xenophanes dared do today? I smell astroturf.

Justin and Alan are not me.

Re: Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be saying that if he died of cancer instead of mental illness? People have this bizarre idea that mental illness somehow doesn't "count". That you have to fight it, and that if you lose, it's your own fault. You are, right here, blaming the victim of the disease. Your brother died from a mental illness. It killed him, just as surely as cancer or a heart attack might have killed him. You'd never, ever, ever…

People disagree with that perspective because it implies that the brain is entirely deterministic biologically and has no plasticity. That you have no mental control over your physiology. That you don't have control over your attitude and outlook, etc.

Attitude is proven to have an effect on cancer remission rates. Yet we still call it a disease and say that it killed you, not that you selfishly killed yourself due to not getting better.

You have some control. Far less than the "suicide is selfish" idiocy assumes.

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