Is the shared economy racist? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#91

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:47 PM UTC

ggchappell wrote: post #71

joesmo wrote: post #12

I don't think any of this is specific to AirBnb or Uber. What is described here is just plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America), especially in regards towards black people. The black friend in the story knew this and wasn't surprised. It's only surprising to people who think this is something of the past, as if somehow people have improved and this shouldn't…

> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue. In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism. EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterprete…

[deleted]

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#92

Post by jfc » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:50 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #81

greendata wrote: post #25

This is so depressing and even though sample size is small it rings 100% true. I think it's just a symptom of an inherently racist and unfair world and is not Uber or Airbnb's fault. The same thing happens with names at the resume level and on and on. That said I think there's a new market here. If the average Airbnb listing is rejecting applicants of color maybe there could be a special "diversity friendly" designat…

"...even though sample size is small it rings 100% true" I just want to point attention to the (perhaps ironic) fact this sort of reasoning is exactly the same one used by the (allegedly) racist hosts and drivers in the story, i.e. people are much more prone to accept what they are told (mostly in sample size = 1 cases or anecdotal generalizations) if it aligns well with their beliefs (e.g. "another BnB host told me…

Speaking of irony...

Doesn't Blink posit that a person's extensive experience in an area can lead them to a quick, gut reaction that is, in fact, correct, even before they are able to verify it?

It seems that Andrew's friend probably has had a fair amount of experience with being mistreated due to his skin color. His reaction to being denied a room 3 out of 3 times was perhaps hyperbolic, but certainly applicable to his experience with the service. (Andrew noted his friend's interactions with the driver, so it wasn't all his friend's imagination).

You could use the ideas noted in Blink to look at this scenario from a variety of perspectives, not just confirmation bias.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#93

Post by rayiner » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:52 PM UTC

wtvanhest wrote: post #46

rayiner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter whether the host is rich or not. One of the key ways of proving a discrimination claim is to show a pattern of action, which calls into doubt the host's pretextual reasons for denying service. Much harder to do that with an individual than a business.

This is a tangent to your point, but if I remember correctly you are an attorney so I replied to you thinking you may no more about this, but even if it is racist, I doubt it is illegal. The fair housing act definitely doesn't protect short term renters staying in someone's home. "The Fair Housing Act applies to landlords renting or leasing space in their primary residence only if the residence contains living quarte…

I'm not a civil rights attorney and this is not legal advice, yada yada. You're referring to the exemption in 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(2), which says: "Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to . . . rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence."

I.e. it doesn't apply to my parents renting out their basement apartment. However, many properties on AirBnB do not meet the requirements for this exception because the other does not make the property his residence. Under 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(1), a single family house is not excluded from the act (after December 31, 1969), if the rental is achieved through the "use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings . . . ." I don't know if AirBnB falls within that (broad) language (see subsection (c)), but if it does, it would be illegal to discriminate in the renting of a house you own for the purpose of renting it out on AirBnB (which is becoming more common).

In any case, my point is that when you are discriminated against by a hotel, at least you have legal recourse. As you point out, unless an AirBnB host has a property he owns for the purpose of renting out, you don't even have that.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#94

Post by vezzy-fnord » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:52 PM UTC

richardjordan wrote: post #82

ggchappell wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue. In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism. EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterprete…

How can anyone possibly believe this? Not just attacking you but genuinely I find this incomprehensible. America is a deeply racist society. It's built on the genocide of the Native Americans who are still largely kept in poverty in virtual prison camps we insultingly call reservations, by racist policies. The legacy of racism against African Americans is still deep and real - have you any experience as a black perso…

Disclaimer: Not an American.

Name me one country that wasn't founded on war and violence.

The situation with African Americans is still flawed and stratified, but has undeniably improved very significantly. Primarily in that they have equal opportunities on a federal level, although obviously social class and environment still play a big role in feasibility.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. There are sentiments against Hispanic immigrants, but the USA also has a very large and legitimate issue with illegal immigration. You can't blame everything on racism.

Incarceration rates are horrible for the entire country, no matter what way you put it. Blacks do have the highest rates, but whites aren't that far behind. It's not just a racial issue. I'd actually say that race is a fairly low concern here, rather the main one should be that the US penal system is fundamentally broken and frequently gamed by private prison corporations.

As for underrepresentation, equal opportunity should not be confused with equal representation. There are obstacles, but lower numbers alone should not be used to make such a conclusion.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#95

Post by 2drew3 » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:52 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #5

Very interesting however they could have easily provided some more conclusive proof. The author should have tried booking one of the places that turned Brandon down on the same dates. If he had been offered the place it would haave been more clear racism was in play. I'm not denying racism was in play (although the UberX example seems quite silly - personally I'd be happy to get a driver that didn't talk to me and th…

I should have done this. But I didn't have this experience to prove a point. Truthfully, I was mostly embarrassed that my suggestion wasn't working and immediately kicked into "find my friend an alternate place" mode. This entire post is not proof and completely anecdotal. I'm the first to admit that. But I hope this audience of entrepreneurs will think about issues like this.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#96

Post by SheepSlapper » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:53 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #5

Very interesting however they could have easily provided some more conclusive proof. The author should have tried booking one of the places that turned Brandon down on the same dates. If he had been offered the place it would haave been more clear racism was in play. I'm not denying racism was in play (although the UberX example seems quite silly - personally I'd be happy to get a driver that didn't talk to me and th…

I kept waiting for him to get on the apps and try to book the same places himself, and when it didn't happen I was kind of disappointed. It's like you say, if he got approved then there was definitely some racism at play. If not, then it was just bad timing. But since he didn't try it, we can only speculate.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#97

Post by cwaniak » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:54 PM UTC

interpares wrote: post #80

cwaniak wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if the media portrayed Africa as rich, prosperous, democratic Continent and Asia as a corrupted war zone with 30yrs + longevity rates, we would believe it too, right?

I'm not sure what your point is, other than trolling. I'll leave you to it.

How convenient...

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#98

Post by potatolicious » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:55 PM UTC

mhurron wrote: post #22

rayiner wrote: post #7

There's a really simple explanatory mechanism, which is that even if an AirBnB host is bound by the same anti-discrimination provisions of the Civil Rights Act as a Hyatt, which is probably true, holding individual service providers accountable at that level is basically impossible. And to the extent that the "sharing economy" involves more individuals rather than businesses that can be sued, you will see more discri…

> I think Americans are much less racist than almost anyone else. I'm Bengali by ethnicity, and my observation is that people on the subcontinent are racist enough to make a south Georgia redneck blush. Not really, it's just in the rest of the world being openly racist is just fine, in the US (and Canada) you have to pick when you can be openly racist and pretend otherwise the rest of the time. > think we'd still hav…

A bit uncharitable. As a minority myself I do think Americans are a lot less racist than almost anyone else, by virtue of the fact that they're aware it exists.

Call it white guilt if you must (though it's really a misnomer), but the fact that Americans are aware of their own racism makes the situation much, much more tolerable than in other places.

Sure, covert racism is still a problem (a big one at that), but at least there is awareness and a substantial degree of introspection. Both of these are absent in more racially homogenous countries, where not only is racism overt, but there is so little public consciousness of it that extreme racism is accepted as a matter of course.

In the US the words "oh good, you're not dating a black girl" will be outright rejected as racist, or at least give people pause and cause discomfort. I've personally experienced the exact same statement tossed around in another country as if it was the most natural thing to say in the world.

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#99

Post by omonra » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:57 PM UTC

I think the headline is a bit misleading.

Racist would mean that hosts don't want to rent their apartment to people of other races (ie whites only wanting to rent to other whites). Here it seems that hosts are making a judgement call about the renter and using race as a parameter. They appear to have no problem renting to Asians or Indians, just have an issue with one particular ethnicity.

Wouldn't a more accurate headline be - 'Airbnb hosts don't want to rent to black customers' (even if it's highly anecdotal)?

Re: Is the shared economy racist?

#100

Post by ggchappell » Wed, Feb 12, 2014, 9:57 PM UTC

richardjordan wrote: post #82

ggchappell wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America) A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue. In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism. EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterprete…

How can anyone possibly believe this? Not just attacking you but genuinely I find this incomprehensible. America is a deeply racist society. It's built on the genocide of the Native Americans who are still largely kept in poverty in virtual prison camps we insultingly call reservations, by racist policies. The legacy of racism against African Americans is still deep and real - have you any experience as a black perso…

Yes, there is racism in America. No, I have largely not been on the receiving end of it.

But I can see that African Americans often have a tough time here.

I can also see the plight of Koreans in Japan, and Muslims in much of India, and Turks in Germany, and Kurds in Iraq, even though I am not part of any of those groups, either. Racism is everywhere. All of it is disgusting, some of it is horrifying, and much of it is significantly worse than what we see in the U.S.