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The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

codemanship.co.uk

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Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#61

Post by w4 »

arethuza wrote: post #24
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #18

Why do developers resist being professionalized? Are we really all so naive to think that the world will grovel at our feet for the rest of time? Fact is, it's extremely likely you've been taken advantage of, financially at some point, for your skills. It's an ugly reality, but I'm betting it has happened to a lot of people, or is happening. There are people who love nothing more than to take advantage of information…

"I'm having a hard time thinking of any downsides to professionalizing" Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again. I really don't see how (or indeed why) that model could be applied to general software development or why it would be in any way desirable. NB: It might be applicable in very small niche are…

> Well, if you are a real professional then a complaint can result in your being struck off and it being legally impossible for you to work in that area again.

Sort of, but not really (here in the US anyways). Usually first complaints get you a slap on the wrist, and even things that rightfully ought to get you kicked out (e.g. attorneys mishandling escrow accounts) frequently don't result in much more than a fine.

Basically, you really need to fuck up to be kicked out of a professional organization. A similar level of fuck up by a software engineer would probably result in them being similarly unemployable. This isn't necessarily a good thing (professional enforcement probably ought to be more aggressive), but the risk is overstated by these organizations, in part as a justification for their existence.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#62

Post by pessimizer »

maratd wrote: post #46
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

> There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. Incompetents are rarely de-certified in professions that have what are effectively guilds. How nutty do you have to be to appreciate a holdover from the middle ages? In fact, it is usually the incompetents who seek the protection of guilds and unions. Without them, where would…

I don't know what you do for a living, but as a programmer, I meet incompetents who should be expelled from the profession all of the time. Aside from incompetence, I don't want to share a profession with programmers who would help create a surveillance state for the NSA, any more than the medical profession should tolerate doctors who work for torturers.

The question is about programmers being considered professionals, though, not what I'd prefer. I'm happy with my check and my title.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#63

Post by declan »

pessimizer wrote: post #29
Havoc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the freebies they get are so baked into government What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Interesting point about the older prof members being both anti-union and but joining a prof body. I reckon the two have different functions though. e.g. In my case the only thing I hear from my prof org is messages with a "comply or else" tone. Sure they do set minimum salaries for apprentic…

>What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Doctors, Lawyers, Realtors, etc. have written 90% of the state laws that they are governed under, and most of the federal ones. They've protected themselves against foreign competition, and shielded themselves against liability.

Not only foreign competition, but domestic competition as well. This is how successful cartels operate.

A reasonable amount of lawyering is filling out forms that a 30-year veteran paralegal could do better than someone who just graduated from law school. A physician friend is alarmed by the rise of nurse practitioners, who are perfectly able to diagnose and prescribe medicine for routine ailments. Realtors have gone further by trademarking the very term(TM): https://twitter.com/REALTORS

You can probably think of more examples as well.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#64

Post by potatolicious »

Havoc wrote: post #20
pessimizer wrote: post #11

Were we ever considered professionals? There's no test - all you have to do to be a software developer is declare yourself to be one. There's no overarching professional organization or boards, therefore incompetents aren't de-certified and national lobbying isn't coherent. In fact, the largest companies that we work for are frequently lobbying for things that programmers don't support, or actively damage our interes…

>the freebies they get are so baked into government What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Interesting point about the older prof members being both anti-union and but joining a prof body. I reckon the two have different functions though. e.g. In my case the only thing I hear from my prof org is messages with a "comply or else" tone. Sure they do set minimum salaries for apprentic…

> "e.g. In my case the only thing I hear from my prof org is messages with a "comply or else" tone."

That is one of the primary functions of professional organizations. The idea is that you'd rather self-regulate than have the government all up in your business. Disputes and claims of impropriety can avoid the courts (and the public limelight) and be resolved internally.

The consequence of that is that you actually have to self-regulate, and that your enforcement arm needs to have teeth.

This is how it works in traditional engineering. Most engineering misconduct - short of the catastrophic stuff that makes the evening news - is dealt with internally. For the most part they do a good job of it, which is why they've been able to avoid being outright regulated deeply by the government.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#65

Post by vinceguidry »

thatthatis wrote: post #15
pnathan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your history is really quite correct in its nuance. Programming as an actual trade emerged quickly in the 50s. The 60s saw the rise of computer science degrees, often coming from either the Math or the EE side. During the 50s and 60s, the computers had tons of people working with FORTRAN/COBOL (& others) to churn out business code. This accelerated in the 70s. There were armies of basic programmers out…

Thanks for the addition. I made un-researched generalizations based on limited knowledge of the skills possessed by the pioneers in the field. I agree that it has, at the least, nuanced errors. But, I try not to let the exact truth get in the way of a good story unless the exact truth is the crux of the argument.

It really isn't that hard to do basic research to test your assumptions. If you don't do it for us, at least do it for yourself. A good story is all of accurate, insightful and entertaining. Yours is mainly the latter, lack of accuracy relegates the insight you were hoping to convey to bullshit.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#66

Post by walshemj »

arethuza wrote: post #58
walshemj wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what has the IEE done to raise the status for Engineers in the UK in last 100 years.

Don't you mean the IEE (now the IET) rather than the IEEE? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution_of_Electrical_Engin...

Oops yes I was thinking of the pre amalgamation set up - I used to be a Junior Member of the Mech engineers

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#67

Post by crncosta »

If you're ambitious and good at office politics and self-promotion, it's entirely possible - maybe even easier - to pass from junior programmer to executive management without actually passing through a stage of technical competence.

Sad to see this happening, but (unfortunately) being politic is more important in this century than used to be before.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#68

Post by pessimizer »

rayiner wrote: post #57
pessimizer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What exactly do you understand under freebies [for 100y+ prof org members]? Doctors, Lawyers, Realtors, etc. have written 90% of the state laws that they are governed under, and most of the federal ones. They've protected themselves against foreign competition, and shielded themselves against liability.

Without necessarily disagreeing with your point, it's interesting to note that software developers bear almost zero liability in practice for all the buggy software they write, while even big name law firms get sued, and lose, regularly on malpractice claims. If Microsoft was as "protected" from malpractice as lawyers are, they would've been sued out of existence for Windows 95/98/ME.

One of the benefits of being unprofessional, I guess, is that the products of our labor are generally considered products of the corporation we work for rather than us as individuals.

Google, SAP, etc. get sued all the time, though.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#69

Post by tjr »

arethuza wrote: post #59
tjr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NB: It might be applicable in very small niche areas - safety critical systems etc. And such systems are certified (in various ways, depending on the exact nature of the system). It'd be a waste of time and energy to certify an iPhone game. So rather than certifying the software developer, certify the software, as needed. That way you can work on safety-critical jet software by day, and crank out cheesy, untested mob…

Out of interest, who certifies that kind of software?

For example, in the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration is responsible for reviewing and signing off on aircraft systems. Documents DO-178B (and now DO-178C) describe the overall methods by which software that runs in avionics systems needs to be developed.

FAA personnel (or more frequently, trained FAA representatives within the avionics company) conduct reviews to ensure that the software is in fact being developed according to the prescribed methods, including requirements capture, coding standards, configuration management, verification, etc. Software is tested in simulation environments, and in partial hardware setups, and eventually on actual airplanes, before receiving FAA sign-off.

Re: The Erosion Of The Status Of Software Developers As Professionals

#70

Post by walshemj »

herge wrote: post #51
walshemj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very very hard to get struck off as a lawyer or a doctor.

But once you're persona non-gratta, it's impossible to get back into the good graces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Glass

Journalists are only professionals in the same way hookers are. As Baldwin said “Power without responsibility — the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages.”

Will any of the NOW hacks who hacked phones have a problem getting a new job NO.

Was Rupert Murdoch stripped of his newspapers as a result of the NOW scandal NO

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