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Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

nature.com

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Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#191

Post by coldtea »

mikeash wrote: post #186
coldtea wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These people don't just assert that "boys, on average, prefer trucks to dolls," but that boys shouldn't be allowed to play with dolls, or wear dresses, or cry, or like other boys. Well, there are things called social norms. That they should be allowed to do such things is also a social norm. I don't see any real argument about one being better than the other.

You don't see any real argument for preferring freedom over restrictions when it comes to harmless activities? That you're allowed to post this comment is a social norm. Not allowing you would also be a social norm. Is there no real argument for why you should be allowed to comment?

>You don't see any real argument for preferring freedom over restrictions when it comes to harmless activities?

Yes, I don't. I take a more philosophocal stance to the issue of society than "freedom above everything". That's not to say I'm against freedom, but I understand that they are nuances to that.

For one, everybody acting the way he pleases, even in areas that seem innocuous or totally a personal choice, can have potentially harmful impact to society at large.

Who's to say what's harmless? This requires a notion of harm, and harm to one's customs/preferred way of life/kind of society he wants, is also a kind of harm.

Even something as basic as the right to eat whatever you want (e.g consequences for obesity rates, social welfare costs, etc). So it depends on what the priorities are. Not everybody, and not every culture, puts the individual ahead of society. Nor it is self-evidently right to do so.

>That you're allowed to post this comment is a social norm. Not allowing you would also be a social norm. Is there no real argument for why you should be allowed to comment?

Well, not really. If the goal of the forum was "total openess and free expression for all", there would be an argument against disallowing certain people/comments.

But if a team, X, built a forum for a specific purpose, why should they allow anyone not aligned with that purpose to post in it? People make choices, not only about how they personally live, but also about how other people shall behave if they want to use/live in etc what they've built, from a country to a web forum.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#192

Post by tomp »

jessedhillon wrote: post #180
einhverfr wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Here are a few examples. 1. In Middle Eastern cultures, the husband's mother has a very strong matriarchal role to play in the family. These are formally some of the most patriarchal cultures in the world, and in particular the young wife is one of the lowest-status members of the household. (But the highest status is that of the husband and of his mother.) 2. This may seem very anecdotal, but if you have ever…

This is the saddest thing on this thread. Purportedly about a scientific paper detailing findings of genetic research. Somewhere along the way, we find you writing a lengthy objection to what you think feminism is, which unsurprisingly makes all the good points on your side and all the wrong points stacked on the opposite side. I can't even begin to object to your characterization of feminism, as your rendering is so…

On the other hand, you have substantially backed up your claims and completely avoided logical fallacies, such as ad hominem. /sarcasm

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#193

Post by [deleted] »

coldtea wrote: post #191
mikeash wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see any real argument for preferring freedom over restrictions when it comes to harmless activities? That you're allowed to post this comment is a social norm. Not allowing you would also be a social norm. Is there no real argument for why you should be allowed to comment?

> You don't see any real argument for preferring freedom over restrictions when it comes to harmless activities? Yes, I don't. I take a more philosophocal stance to the issue of society than "freedom above everything". That's not to say I'm against freedom, but I understand that they are nuances to that. For one, everybody acting the way he pleases, even in areas that seem innocuous or totally a personal choice, can…

[deleted]

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#194

Post by einhverfr »

jessedhillon wrote: post #184
einhverfr wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of a longish reply, I have decided to leave it at a citation you are looking for and a simple observation. (This is edited, so if there are posts to it that seem like a "Good Day, Fellow" "Axehandle" conversation that's my fault). The citation is "Etching Patriarchal Rule" by Elaine Combs-Shilling, which discusses henna ceremonies and family structure in Morocco. The observation is that every one of us has lo…

The critique is not that you have a lopsided view. It's that you have put forward just an incredibly simple perspective but apparently have derived such significant meaning from it, and such weighty conclusions. Even now, you think that quoting someone adds heft to your evidence when the even more obvious question -- why are you limiting your analysis to intra-household dynamics only? -- doesn't seem to enter your mi…

Just to make one clarification:

Obviously the household exists in a context regarding dealings with other households in a traditional culture so intrahousehold dynamics are important. Again, I said I saw modern feminism and women's suffrage arising as a response to changes in the interhousehold space brought on by industrialization.

This being said matriarchy and patriarchy are almost always a question of intra-household dynamics. The question is, whether women effectively hold the keys to power or whether women are isolated from eachother, unable to effectively organize and make their agendas compelling. A strong matriarchy/patriarchy in the household is a good indication of women being able to do this (again one sees this in Greek material despite the fact that the society was formally patriarchal with formal privileges associated with men only, see the drama of Lysistrata for a dramatic account, but also look at Faraone's works cited above).

The family is also generally a state in miniature. What goes on with the family is a mirror of state power structures (see Elaine Combs-Schilling, "Etching Patriarchal Rule" for some brief discussion of this, but also see "Mass Psychology of Fascism" by Wilhelm Reich for a psychologist's view). So intra-household dynamics are the among the best indications of political power structures in the whole of society.

In short, whoever has power at home, has power everywhere.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#195

Post by einhverfr »

lsc wrote: post #189
FD3SA wrote: post #2

It is my sincere hope that this understanding becomes pervasive in society, such that the inane social movements based upon naught but angry emotional mob mentality become part of history. As it stands, young boys are medicated with psychiatric drugs for beings boys, and this is deemed acceptable by society. Boys are failing at every step in public institutions, with higher drop out rates at all levels of schooling.…

>young boys are medicated with psychiatric drugs for beings boys I grew up with ADD, and did not obtain medication, by choice, until I reached adulthood. I perceive the medication to be supporting what I'd generally call "masculine values" - it's good for deadening the emotions and producing things. I'll skip it if I know the day is going to be mostly social, or even if I know that I will have a meeting where my abil…

It's funny. I grew up with ADD and ended up on medication by accident when I was a teenager (I was medicated for misdiagnosed depression). It was helpful but I was not on the typical medications for ADD.

My son has ADD too, and so far we have been able to get by without pharmaceuticals. He does drink coffee most mornings and that really helps him. But we'd avoid medications if possible.

Here in Indonesia such things are still very stigmatized but there's a positive side to that too, in that the definition of "normal" is much more expansive. To a remarkable extent by destigmatizing these things we've paved the way in the US to allow the elision of "normal" from descriptions of actual, living, breathing people.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#196

Post by fnl »

From the article:

> We show that sex differences in gene expression and splicing are widespread in adult human brain, being detectable in all major brain regions and involving 2.5% of all expressed genes.

While I don't have a similar number, inter-racial differences of gene expression will be quite similar, if not even higher. This is the reason why RNAseq experiments these days in some cases can even find opposing evidence, given the genetic background of the subjects, such as in the recent bladder cancer publications regarding the role of STAG2 [1].

Please do not claim (or, rather, proselytize...) the "evidence" for sex differences based on a Nature article most people taking positions in that respect probably do not even quite comprehend.

[1] http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v13/n12/full/nrc3631.html

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#197

Post by cubancigar11 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #116
cwaniak wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there aren't, but a lot of people are firmly convinced that there are. Any evidence of that?

Here's an experiment you can try yourself if you're male: attempt to enter a typical* church or school while wearing a dress and makeup. Compare to the reactions you get entering the same establishment wearing "normal" clothes. *I'm sure you can cherry-pick unusually liberal examples of either, but you know what I'm talking about.

Daniel_Newby, you are [dead].

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#198

Post by tomp »

yaddayadda wrote: post #54
stcredzero wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say no one, but it's also true that the Men's Rights movement has a steep uphill PR struggle ahead of them. In part because of active attacks from parts of the feminist movement, and in part because they actively feed into the conflict. Also, it's a fact of life that men who lose their temper in any he-said-she-said conflict often receive a knee-jerk judgement from those around them, which makes it difficu…

I'm disappointed that there's a "Men's Rights" movement. My mother raised me as a "feminist" and part of being a "feminist" was not discriminating against anyone because of their gender. For example, feminists support a boy who wants to play with dolls or a father wants to be a stay-at-home parent. I hate that the label itself is gendered and I wish it would be changed, but the principles of "feminism" include "Men's…

Here is nice explanation of why men's rights movement is important: http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1jt1u5/cmv_i_t...

You might not find it as enlightening, but it offers a pretty rational approach.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#199

Post by nailer »

RodericDay wrote: post #173
haberman wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently came across a link to this book, which I have not yet been able to read: http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Storm-Flaws-Science-Differences/... Published just a few years ago, it criticizes much of the research on sex differences, and from the reviews it makes a very exhaustive and compelling case. I'm curious if these are some of the studies it criticizes. (I don't have an opinion on this either way as I have no…

I've read through "The Delusion of Gender"- http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-D... , where an Oxford, Cambridge, and UCL-educated Doctor of Psychology wrecks havok through Simon Baron-Cohen and his ilk's research. It's a little boring, but systematic.

I'd rather trust a medical doctor to assess medical topics than a psychologist.

And exactly what 'nurture' are in-utero babies - the subject of the testosterone / interest tests - subjected to anyway?

You've read the book. Sum it up for us.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#200

Post by nailer »

tw268 wrote: post #94
scott_karana wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen studies demonstrating the reverse: controlled for poverty, school, and whether a student has one or two parents, white and black American schoolchildren tested the same. (Standard deviation of 0.06: http://www.nber.org/papers/w12066 ) EDIT: Sorry, wrong paper. Looking for the right one. Even the fact that you point out "in the US" should be an indicator of the racism. I've never heard any other modern count…

Racial differences in IQ are surprisingly robust between and within countries: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IQ_by_Country.png These differences are mirrored by PISA and IQ scores between nations, SAT scores within nations, and etc. It's not hard to find corroborating evidence, but most people don't want to. http://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/#Race-IQ It's hard to imagine that racism accounts for the…

South Korea and Japan I can understand, but .... Italy?
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