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John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

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Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#141

Post by eclipxe »

bbosh wrote: post #128
eclipxe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. Experiment: eat 500 calories of sugar (ice cream, soda, candy). Wait 15-20 minutes, how hungry are you? Now, eat 500 calories of fat (heavy cream, bacon, pork belly, etc). Wait 15-20 minutes, how hungry are you? I've done this experiment a few times now, and without fail, I crave more food after the sugar and can't eat another bite after the fat.

Here's another experiment. Eat 500 calories of 50% fat, 50% sugar. For example, ice cream. You'll feel much hungrier than both a fat and sugar only diet. It's fat and sugar combined that cause obesity problems.

I agree. Sugar (in some people) can cause the storage of extra calories - if those calories are from fat, it will be stored.

Here's another experiment - take 300 million people, tell them to eat primarily carbohydrates and limit their fats. Observe the trend for 30 years.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#142

Post by eclipxe »

jimeuxx wrote: post #103
eclipxe wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because fiber. Okay, how about half a cup of heavy cream instead of bacon. I guarantee you won't feel hungry 15-20 minutes late.

All this is fun for experimenting, but none of it proves that we need to remove sugar from our diets. Food is complex and shouldn't be reduced to macronutrients. Maybe the protein in the bacon or the nitrites challenging your bowels contribute to your satiety too. If Lustig's views stop people from pounding soda all the way to the diabetician's office, then great, but if they start putting you off of fruit and vegeta…

Fruits in their natural state with lots of good cleansing fiber and lots of non-starcy vegetables are awesome! I think everyone agrees that should be the core of a healthy diet. I think even most people agree protein is generally a "good thing".

What we don't agree on are the roles of starches, sugars (added and in drinks), and fats. What we do know is that the combination of both leads to bad things in excess. What a lot of folks that have cut out sugar/most carbohydrates will tell you, is that they feel much much better and lose weight easily and effortlessly, even without making a conscious effort to restrict calories or exercise more.

On the other hand, many people on high-carb, low-fat diets struggle to lose weight without careful caloric restriction and additional exercise.

Of course, anecdotal and such, but come on - it is sorta kinda obvious here.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#143

Post by camillomiller »

jeffdavis wrote: post #126
mishkovski wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can confirm that from my own experience. I lost 20kg in 6 months. Yes I restricted my calorie intake. But how I did that? By controlling my appetite with avoiding carbs especially sugar. Ketogenic diet is powerful tool for restricting calorie intake.

Lustig is primarily concerned with fructose (and sucrose, which quickly metabolizes into a 50-50 mix of fructose and glucose). Carbs in general (ones that metabolize mostly into glucose) have been widely available for a long time. They are also processed in a more "normal" way than fructose. It might still be a good idea to reduce carbs, but I'm skeptical that the ketogenic diet is healthy.

Ketogenic diets are indeed not healthy over prolonged periods and should be limited in time. They're very effective though, so if you wanna do it just seek advice from a nutritionist and keep being supervised. It's like putting the body in emergency mode, something you don't want to do for several weeks at a time.

Unfortunately, dieting will not change anything unless you really change your lifestyle and eating habits forever.

Any diet is a failure if it's just something you do for some time, just to get back to the old habits once you shaved off some pounds. Because of that, keto diets are not a good solution, since people get the wrong assumption about dieting ("I can eat like an animal and then do some keto to get fit again") and they're very likely to induce some sort of weight cycling (the so called yo-yo effect).

Therefore keto should be used with caution, by people who do that with knowledge and with the help of a professional. Sticking to healthier eating habits over time is much more difficult and you need a very, very strong commitment. At some point in time, though, there's a switch that finally clicks and everything becomes more easy. Exercise should be a big part of this journey.

In the end it's much more rewarding and you'll discover a whole range of benefits. Weight loss will be just an insignificant detail, then.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#144

Post by EpicEng »

pradocchia wrote: post #87
EpicEng wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh c'mon, lighten up. Sure, kids shouldn't be eating frosted flakes and garbage like that on a regular basis, but you're not going to give your kid a birthday cake? No occasional ice cream cones? Must be fun to be your kid. Everything in moderation.

Birthday cakes, Halloween candy, Christmas candy....this is a tremendous amount of sugar, and is kind of shocking to one who grew up without it. The ubiquity of sugar today discourages moderation by normalizing consumption. It would be like having ash trays in every public space and cigarette ads on tv, with "enjoy responsibly" as the tag line.

  The ubiquity of sugar today discourages moderation by normalizing consumption.
Ok, and that's bad, but I can't control other people's kids. I can however treat my son every so often without fear of anything terrible happening.

  It would be like having ash trays in every public space and cigarette ads on tv, with "enjoy responsibly" as the tag line.
Not really. Adults chose to smoke. They're grown ups, they get to make choices and live with the consequences. I'm fine with them smoking outdoors as well because it doesn't take away my choice to be in a smoke free environment the vast majority of the time. So how is indoor smoking like eating candy again?

I'd like to see some data which shows that occasional sugar intake leads to real health problems.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#145

Post by sgift »

camillomiller wrote: post #143
jeffdavis wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lustig is primarily concerned with fructose (and sucrose, which quickly metabolizes into a 50-50 mix of fructose and glucose). Carbs in general (ones that metabolize mostly into glucose) have been widely available for a long time. They are also processed in a more "normal" way than fructose. It might still be a good idea to reduce carbs, but I'm skeptical that the ketogenic diet is healthy.

Ketogenic diets are indeed not healthy over prolonged periods and should be limited in time. They're very effective though, so if you wanna do it just seek advice from a nutritionist and keep being supervised. It's like putting the body in emergency mode, something you don't want to do for several weeks at a time. Unfortunately, dieting will not change anything unless you really change your lifestyle and eating habit…

> Ketogenic diets are indeed not healthy over prolonged periods and should be limited in time.

They aren't? Are there strong hints* that this is true? I didn't see any so far, but that may be due to my limited research.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#146

Post by StavrosK »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #69
matwood wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eating? I'm only partially joking. Calories don't just magically appear.

Sugar makes you feel like you're starving. You get sleepy at the peak, "starving" at the trough... like a repeating sine wave. Leads to overeating.

But who eats sugar to get full? I (and everyone I know) eat sweets after a meal, or because I see them, not because I expect to sate my hunger with it.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#147

Post by vinceguidry »

wavesounds wrote: post #134
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doughnuts, one of my favorite foods, can be part of a healthy diet Can they?

There's not a dietitian on this planet that when asked to define a "healthy diet" would include donuts. This guy is living in denial if he honestly think this.

You're assuming the healthy diet concept is entirely prescriptive, in that there's a List of Healthy Things to Eat which thou must not deviate from. That's not how dietitians approach it. It mostly revolves around ensuring your macro and micro nutrient intake keeps to certain levels determined largely by your activity level.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#148

Post by jacobolus »

mistermann wrote: post #111
victorhooi wrote: post #49

I'm currently reading "The Low-Carb Fraud", by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, who was one of the original authors of the China Study. http://www.amazon.com/The-Low-Carb-Fraud-Colin-Campbell/dp/1... Campbell has multiple degrees in biochemistry and nutrition, and from what I can tell, seems to be pretty well respected in his field. On the other hand, Gary Taube, who wrote Good Calories, Bad Calories, and who people here seem…

Despite not being done the book yet, could you give us an idea what the general premise is, and how it somehow disproves what to me at least is the overwhelming real world effectiveness of a low carb diet for losing weight?

The author participated in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study which compared rural Chinese diet and health outcomes to typical western ones.

He’s been vegan for >20 years, and he studies and advocates a vegan diet, because he claims that eating animal products is unhealthy / causes disease. He is the darling of vegans, among whom he has a large following.

Among books written from that perspective, my understanding from reading various reviews is that this is one of the best argued and supported ones, with lots of solid citations of scientific literature. Because the perspective is controversial (e.g. it’s different than the norm, it threatens “conventional wisdom” and food businesses) the book has also drawn some flak from other scientists who disagree with the book’s conclusions.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#149

Post by vinceguidry »

bbosh wrote: post #128
eclipxe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. Experiment: eat 500 calories of sugar (ice cream, soda, candy). Wait 15-20 minutes, how hungry are you? Now, eat 500 calories of fat (heavy cream, bacon, pork belly, etc). Wait 15-20 minutes, how hungry are you? I've done this experiment a few times now, and without fail, I crave more food after the sugar and can't eat another bite after the fat.

Here's another experiment. Eat 500 calories of 50% fat, 50% sugar. For example, ice cream. You'll feel much hungrier than both a fat and sugar only diet. It's fat and sugar combined that cause obesity problems.

I eat a pint of ice cream as a meal on rare occasions, it fills me up and I'm only a little hungrier than normal when the next meal time comes round, which I attribute to a pint of ice cream not having as many calories as a typical meal.

Re: John Yudkin: the man who tried to warn us about sugar

#150

Post by sgift »

saganus wrote: post #130
pvnick wrote: post #18

I'm getting sick of this ignorant sugar alarmism. Sugar is not the culprit behind all the diseases listed in the article. Obesity is [5] [6]. Unless of course you're talking about cavities. Then not brushing your teeth is the culprit. The reason sugar gets such a bad rep is that high-sugar foods tend to be less-filling and lead to overeating [1]. Stay at a healthy weight by controlling caloric consumption [2]. The ar…

An acquaintance I once met, that used to work on the product design team for one of the major brands of snack/potato chips makers, had a witty response to what a friend asked, along the lines of: "so, tell us, how can you work at something that you know is bad for people's health?" and he answered: "I am certainly used to the opinion that garbage food is bad for your health, and what I think is that garbage food does…

The only thing this tells me is that your acquaintance has a good working "moral deflection" system. What? Cigarettes are bad? No, no, I wouldn't work on a bad product. All is good in moderation! What? I spam people with ads all day and that could be bad? No, no, I wouldn't work on a bad product. I only inform people!

And so on. No one thinks he does bad* things. Your mind forbids it or you would probably go insane. That doesn't change the reality.

* For various values of bad

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