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Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

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Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#281

Post by akavi »

j2kun wrote: post #135
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can relate to that. College-level calculus burned me so much , I didn't had the algebra background necessary to grok it, much of it is memorizing heuristics and "tricks", and college professors (specially in my public uni) didn't had much patience either. I even did well in other math-related classes, but calculus was a chimera. Unfortunately, I fell so much behind the curriculum that I had to drop out of college t…

It is very rare for an incoming calculus student to know algebra. In fact, I often tell my students that the first goal of college-level calculus is to make them actually learn algebra. It's an extremely sad state of affairs for me (a mathematician). Relevant (an article I wrote): http://j2kun.svbtle.com/you-never-did-math-in-high-school

Uh, don't most students take calculus senior year of high school?

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#282

Post by lutusp »

akavi wrote: post #281
j2kun wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very rare for an incoming calculus student to know algebra. In fact, I often tell my students that the first goal of college-level calculus is to make them actually learn algebra. It's an extremely sad state of affairs for me (a mathematician). Relevant (an article I wrote): http://j2kun.svbtle.com/you-never-did-math-in-high-school

Uh, don't most students take calculus senior year of high school?

In the U.S.? Not really. This source --

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=97

-- says that in 2009, just 16% of U.S. high school students took calculus. And a common complaint by college professors is that high school calculus courses teach rote procedures without explaining calculus in any depth -- the students know how to solve calculus problems, but they don't actually understand the subject.

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#283

Post by queeerkopf »

nswanberg wrote: post #65

For those curious about the context: https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/23/97 Note that noone replied to Eric and the thread continued on. Also go back and read some of Linus's posts before this. Eric writes using vague generalizations about age and experience; Linus writes with specifics about his experience with the kernel. The former style makes for popularly read posts but the latter seems much more effective. Also, co…

Although noone replied directly Matthias Andree wrote:

"(I have read Eric's folloup to Linus' mail I'm replying to, but not following that one up in AOL style. I second Eric mentioning the "curse of the gifted" from own experience. You start something without design, it succeeds for your talent, experience, whatever, it evolves and grows and eventually disembogues into a rewrite from scratch, that time with a design before the implementation.)"

My guess is that most of them thought Erics Mail too off topic to continue in that direction on the kernel list. I'd like to know what they thought of Erics arguments though. Exspecially Linus opinion at the time would have been interesting ...

Source: https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/23/103

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#284

Post by Cakez0r »

copperx wrote: post #247
marvin wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit. I would never work with someone who addressed me like that after I asked an honest question. It's a wonder that there are enough competent people working on Linux who are willing to put up with this. Getting a message like this once would lead to a personal e-mail or in-person conversation explaining that this is in no way an acceptable way to communicate with me, followed by a prompt beeline for the exit…

Why is that not a right way of communicating? He's right. Could Linus deliver the same message beating around the bush? The message is clear and to the point. I honestly don't see an alternative, even though I would never communicate in such a way.

You can talk sternly without telling someone to go and fuck themselves, in as many words.

"It's unacceptable to break userspace. I've fixed the issue personally on this occasion. Look after your area or I'll be forced to find somebody else who can." would suffice

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#285

Post by wwweston »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #88

This is really how to fix this: http://carymillsap.blogspot.com/2011/01/axiomatic-approach-t... I was an undergrad with Cary, and he got A's, I got B's with the odd C and this is exactly why. Until I took the Discrete Math course ( w/ the Eggers book - which is fantastic ) , I was floundering. I knew what the rules were, roughly, but I didn't KNOW know them. I'm not name-dropping Cary. It's just a coincidence, but I…

What's the Eggers book? It doesn't seem to be referenced in the linked blog post, and I can't seem to find anything with a Google or Amazon search on "Discrete Mathematics Eggers".

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#286

Post by oelmekki »

georgiecasey wrote: post #253
nswanberg wrote: post #65

For those curious about the context: https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/23/97 Note that noone replied to Eric and the thread continued on. Also go back and read some of Linus's posts before this. Eric writes using vague generalizations about age and experience; Linus writes with specifics about his experience with the kernel. The former style makes for popularly read posts but the latter seems much more effective. Also, co…

i had to scroll down this far to find people who actually read the link. everybody above just wants to tell us how much of a curse their high intelligence is.

I would recommend you try reading hn on a mobile device. Apps allow to tap a comment to hide the whole thread, which make it really easier to cycle top level comments (this one is actually the third)

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#287

Post by puredemo »

austenallred wrote: post #18

I am miles away from Eric or Linus, but the "curse of the gifted" is very real. Thankfully I wasn't smart or gifted enough that I could ride it for long, but when it comes to math and problem-solving I rode it well into my high school years. I never learned to do algebra "by the book," because I didn't need to. Or maybe because I wasn't smart enough to. The math teacher would teach "3x + 6 = 9." Basic algebraic probl…

It's also an example of why it's poor practice to teach the gifted along side of lower performing students -- they realize they can get by easily without working hard and it becomes a habit.

Ideally, the gifted should have their own programs where they are forced to compete with other exceptional students the entire time they're in school, rather than follow a program meant to pander to the lowest common denominator students in society.

Also, I'm with you bro, fell into the same trap. It sucks.

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#288

Post by lmm »

bunderbunder wrote: post #103
ejk314 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Straight As can mask a lot of problems. I've got a room mate who was put ahead a grade in middle?late-elementary school and missed the whole foundation of algebra. They did so because he got straight A's so obviously he's smart enough; he could just skip that. (They promised to give him a text book so he could learn on his own that summer, but never got around to giving it to him.) Of course, he started struggling i…

I have never, ever, ever met someone who was well-served by skipping a grade. Myself included. Ever. Skipping a grade means giving up a full year of education. If that proposition doesn't give you pause, you probably don't have enough respect for the value of education. Even if you you get absolutely nothing out of that year aside from the soft skills you develop by sitting in a class with other kids and listening to…

Skipping a year worked very well for me.

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#289

Post by 72deluxe »

gknoy wrote: post #183
josephschmoe wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never hit a wall with mathematics. My approach was to write down what I have to and do everything else in my head. I hit a wall within the first five minutes of programming. I know I will mistakes and I make up for that by making small, clear code commits and trying to make my code easy to read. I'm a much better programmer than I am a physicist. I am also much happier working as a programmer than I was studying ph…

I definitely make mistakes, so one tactic I use is liberal use of code comments. I start with a comment about what the overall task is about, so that I can keep perspective, and then I will use a series of "TODO ..." comments to break things down into smaller steps. The nice thing about this is, some of those survive revisions and can then be line comments which explain the next few lines of code: # Frob the Foo.womb…

I tend to design stuff on paper with logical boxes and arrows, then add that as a large comment at the beginning of a complex section, then implement it without any comments in the code. That way, the code is still readable but there is a reference above it. Just like you have in books on programming languages.

Re: Curse Of The Gifted (2000)

#290

Post by anonymoushn »

bunderbunder wrote: post #103
ejk314 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Straight As can mask a lot of problems. I've got a room mate who was put ahead a grade in middle?late-elementary school and missed the whole foundation of algebra. They did so because he got straight A's so obviously he's smart enough; he could just skip that. (They promised to give him a text book so he could learn on his own that summer, but never got around to giving it to him.) Of course, he started struggling i…

I have never, ever, ever met someone who was well-served by skipping a grade. Myself included. Ever. Skipping a grade means giving up a full year of education. If that proposition doesn't give you pause, you probably don't have enough respect for the value of education. Even if you you get absolutely nothing out of that year aside from the soft skills you develop by sitting in a class with other kids and listening to…

The amount of redundancy in our public education is such that skipping a grade doesn't really mean missing out on education...

I suppose it can have an impact on socialization, but it still seems like a good trade if you gain a year of your life. I made the trade once the normal way and twice more by starting college early. Stuff was hard, but I can't imagine boring myself to death for three extra years in a town isolated from civilization would have been better.

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