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Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

nature.com

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Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#31

Post by api »

sp332 wrote: post #19
mudil wrote: post #12

That's exactly why we don't have many women in tech and most readers of HN are guys. All this political correctness and attacks on PG are simply BS: men and women are different. Not better, not worse, just different. It's evolution of sex, stupid. PS. My previous comment on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7041221

But you haven't even tried to make a connection between the physical differences and the social differences. You just assume that all social differences are explained biologically.

By default conservatives tend to assume that social differences are explained biologically while liberals assume they're explained culturally. Both are extreme and likely very wrong positions.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#32

Post by Beliavsky »

mudil wrote: post #25
api wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos sir or ma'am. The same argument can be levied at racism. If you go back to the year 1000AD, it's obvious that Europeans are of vastly inferior stock. The Chinese and the Arabs were doing optics and stuff while the Europeans were basically playing in the dirt.

These things are completely different. Races are not different species. All people are the same: race does not matter. Sexual roles (the evolution of sexuality) is a completely different game. Ever thought why peacock has a tail but not peahen?

"All people are the same: race does not matter."

In the U.S. whites score about one standard deviation above blacks on IQ tests such as WISC and Stanford-Binet, and in adoption studies that try to control for environment, this difference does not go away. Race is more than skin deep.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#33

Post by Gracana »

demallien wrote: post #21
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as it often does. It's fallacious to assume that there are no inborn differences between men and women. It's equally fallacious to insist (as many do and will, probably citing this study) that there are vast and uncrossable gulfs between men and women, and that anyone who crosses those gulfs anyway must be some sort of deviant. Humans are complex, the product of both nature and…

Yes. I didn't read the whole paper, just the abstract, but I would not be surprised to learn (based on previous studies) that the difference between men and women is smaller than the variance amongst men, or the variance amongst women, which is the case for nearly all non-primary sexual differences between men and women.

Just to add another variable to consider, studies show* that men and women perform considerably better or worse at stereotypically masculine and feminine tasks depending on how their identity is primed.

Considering individual variance and societal influence, making assumptions about an individual's capabilities based solely on their sex seems foolish and even harmful.

* Sorry to provide this without citation, I believe the studies are cited in the first section of "Delusions of Gender" if anyone is interested in the topic.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#34

Post by discostrings »

It's disappointing to see so many people here read the title of the article and immediately start the see,-social-differences-are-the-result-of-vast-differences-between-the-binary-sexes wheel rolling again. It's nowhere near a valid conclusion from the article's content. There are racial differences in gene expression (though much smaller), too, but I doubt anyone would upvote it or start a similar conversation about race if an article about it were posted here.

There are clearly differences between the physiology of the average man and the average woman, but those differences appear to be more of a spectrum than a binary split. Given that, I don't understand how people with an axe to grind against the "gender is cultural" idea would like society to look. Why argue against the idea that individual differences are vast, and that the best approach is not to create groups that are defined at birth? What's the alternative being suggested?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#35

Post by phaer »

s_baby wrote: post #8
jb17 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I ever encountered that argument, and when I see people arguing against it, it always seems to be a straw man. The argument I've encountered goes more like this: Because there has been historical oppression, we can't easily distinguish the influence of that from biology and should remove the oppression before we come up with biological theories that justify the oppression. That seems reasonable to me.

Speak for yourself. I personally know a lesbian couple that forces their boy to wear dresses, play with dolls, and talk down anything traditionally "male". I completely agree with your original post but it's hard to deny there's a turd in the feminist kool-aid bowl and no one is willing to pull it out.

> Speak for yourself. I personally know a lesbian couple that forces their boy to wear dresses, play with dolls, and talk down anything traditionally "male".

I am sorry, I don't see how that would be the same as "denying any difference between men and women". Do you really think, or even have proof which shows, that playing with dolls or wearing dresses is biologically, not socially, "male"?

A lot of clothing conventions for males in past centuries would pass as "female" today. Until the late 19th century it was common for small boys to wear dresses, see [1] for an example.

Besides, I myself played with dolls as a small boy and as far as I can tell did take no harm. That might be different if those boys grow up around homophobic people who bully them for playing with dolls or wearing dresses.

[1]: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-st...

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#36

Post by powertower »

api wrote: post #17
Fomite wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this explain fields where the gender balance has drifted considerably over time?

Kudos sir or ma'am. The same argument can be levied at racism. If you go back to the year 1000AD, it's obvious that Europeans are of vastly inferior stock. The Chinese and the Arabs were doing optics and stuff while the Europeans were basically playing in the dirt.

What are you talking about?

By the year 1000 AD the Europeans had already built the most grandiose of structures that rival today’s standards, had the most extensive networks and cities, filled entire libraries with books on all manners of philosophy and science, explored all corners of the world, and so on and on.

And it wasn't until about the 1900s (about 1920-1960), when the Western World (that primarily consisted of those same groups of people) exported its knowledge and technology (via a combination of globalism/capitalism + sharing + altruism) - that started to change the subsistence living conditions for everyone else to at least something higher.

If something was not invented by the Europeans, it sure as hell was revised and improved to such a degree that you can't equate the two in any meaningful way.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#37

Post by phaer »

adamnemecek wrote: post #27
s_baby wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. I personally know a lesbian couple that forces their boy to wear dresses, play with dolls, and talk down anything traditionally "male". I completely agree with your original post but it's hard to deny there's a turd in the feminist kool-aid bowl and no one is willing to pull it out.

Sounds a bit like child abuse. And when I say a bit I mean a lot.

Care to elaborate?

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#38

Post by [deleted] »

api wrote: post #31
sp332 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you haven't even tried to make a connection between the physical differences and the social differences. You just assume that all social differences are explained biologically.

By default conservatives tend to assume that social differences are explained biologically while liberals assume they're explained culturally. Both are extreme and likely very wrong positions.

[deleted]

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#39

Post by maratd »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #3
FD3SA wrote: post #2

It is my sincere hope that this understanding becomes pervasive in society, such that the inane social movements based upon naught but angry emotional mob mentality become part of history. As it stands, young boys are medicated with psychiatric drugs for beings boys, and this is deemed acceptable by society. Boys are failing at every step in public institutions, with higher drop out rates at all levels of schooling.…

The truth lies somewhere in the middle, as it often does. It's fallacious to assume that there are no inborn differences between men and women. It's equally fallacious to insist (as many do and will, probably citing this study) that there are vast and uncrossable gulfs between men and women, and that anyone who crosses those gulfs anyway must be some sort of deviant. Humans are complex, the product of both nature and…

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your comment actually means.

What gulfs?

Men and women are complimentary. The masculine and the feminine interplay between each other and cooperate toward mutual benefit. There is no gulf.

I reject the notion that we somehow have to eliminate the feminine and the masculine, to be left with some sort of androgynous average. That's just nonsense.

And yes, some men can be feminine and some women can be masculine, and we all certainly have characteristics that can be described as one or the other, but they can and should be described as one or the other. Not as some gender-less PC nonsense.

There is nothing wrong with being a masculine man. There is nothing wrong with being a feminine woman. And there is nothing wrong with the array of all the other possibilities. There are no gulfs that need bridging.

Re: Widespread sex differences in gene expression in the human brain (2013)

#40

Post by agentultra »

discostrings wrote: post #34

It's disappointing to see so many people here read the title of the article and immediately start the see,-social-differences-are-the-result-of-vast-differences-between-the-binary-sexes wheel rolling again. It's nowhere near a valid conclusion from the article's content. There are racial differences in gene expression (though much smaller), too, but I doubt anyone would upvote it or start a similar conversation about…

I expected it but am no less disappointed.

Anyone with an extreme emotional investment in the "gender respresentation" issue isn't even going to read the article before proselytizing HN with their beliefs.

This is an article about gene expressions and their correlation to the development of various neurological disorders.

However it mentions differences between males and females... so it's going to trigger a completely off-topic flame war.

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