Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town • Hacker News Board

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#41

Post by tptacek » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 3:50 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #21

rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rust belt was news and new and insightful in 1970 or so As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. The usual response to concerns about technology or globalization putting people out of work is that it just frees them up to work on something better and more useful. "New jobs will rep…

>> Fully a quarter of the U.S. population lives in the metro areas of just six cities: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, San Jose/San Francisco, and Boston. Chicago and Los Angeles are safe if you live in a upper-middle class white neighborhood. Chicago is the most dangerous large city in the US.

First, no, Chicago is not the most dangerous city in the US. Per capita, it's not even in the top ten. People have a bad habit of looking at Chicago's totals while forgetting that the city is gigantic. The logic that says Chicago is the most dangerous city in the US also says that Camden is safer than Dallas.

Second, it is not true that Chicago is only safe if you live in rich white enclaves. What is instead true is that two large tracts on the south and west sides of the city (Englewood and Lawndale, respectively) are currently lost to gang violence. But Chicago also has huge swaths of lower-middle-class neighborhoods that are no more dangerous than those of any other big city. A huge portion of those neighborhoods are hispanic, and there are many majority-African American neighborhoods with low crime stats as well.

It is possible that your friends who live in Chicago don't realize this, because what is also true about Chicago is that the 20-something hipster demographic lives almost exclusively in just a few neighborhoods on the north and near northwest sides.

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#42

Post by cglace » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 3:56 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #33

SyneRyder wrote: post #6

For folks wondering why this is on HN, there's some interesting info in the middle of the article about the tech the new police force are using in Camden: "There are 35 microphones planted around the city that can instantly detect the exact location of a gunshot down to a few meters (and just as instantly train cameras on escape routes)."

I wonder if they could do the same thing for the sound of breaking glass? That would probably indicate a crime or at least an accident.

I'm sure you could. I have glass break sensors throughout my home to detect someone entering through a window.

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#43

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:02 PM UTC

Edmond wrote: post #17

JackFr wrote: post #7

According to Taibbi, the only person in the state of New Jersey with any moral responsibility for his or her actions is the governor. The city of Camden is populated entirely by victims, and the cause of their misery is Chris Christie.

I believe Camden is more or less under state control so it is right to blame the state. NJ has an awful track record when it comes to how it treats its urban areas. Newark, which would be considered a crown jewel anywhere else has been left to rot for 40yrs. The state is very unequal in terms of investment to various areas, basically you can quickly tell where the high income earners live and where the rest live wher…

According to the article Christie was unable to take over the schools in Camden, and took over the police force in 2013. Blaming him for not fixing the problems of Camden in less than a year is a little silly.

Complaining that NJ didn't force Hoboken to subsidize Newark is silly - San Fransisco and Toronto didn't subsidize Camden either, but I don't see you blaming them.

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#44

Post by larrys » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:07 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #3

>> In September, its last supermarket closed, and the city has been declared a "food desert" by the USDA. There might not be a Safeway or a Kroger, but there are still places to buy groceries. http://i.imgur.com/Ey903PW.png Really tied of the media exaggerating the term 'food desert'

"Really tied of the media exaggerating the term 'food desert'"

This article has been given the full "MATT TAIBBI" treatment. Of course he's a writer and wants to sell magazines.

He didn't add a "to be sure" phrase he is going for maximum gullibility of the readers to get emotion and engagement.

For example:

"where oblivious tourists pour in every year, gobbling cheese steaks and gazing at the Liberty Bell, having no idea that they're a short walk over the Ben Franklin Bridge from a full-blown sovereignty crisis – an un-Fantasy Island of extreme poverty and violence where the police just a few years ago essentially surrendered a city of 77,000."

So the definition of "oblivious" is "not aware of or not concerned about what is happening around one."

That would seem to imply to me that they have some kind of an obligation to be (when they are going on vacation) aware of what is happening across the river (and out of site) in a major city in the US. As if they are the CEO and aren't aware that there is sexual abuse going on and hey they should be. No such requirement exists. That they feel bad or should have some clue. Sorry not the case. Work hard, make money, take family on vacation. Saving the world do that on a different trip. Why not skip the trip and give the money you would spend to the poor people of Camden? Good for you.

Note also the triviality of "gobbling cheese steaks and gazing at the Liberty Bell" juxtaposed against true tragedy. Why does that matter? It doesn't but it provides color to the story and contrast. (By the way Philly is way more than cheesesteaks and the Liberty Bell I wish the media would get off of that already with the city).

Tourists of course are most likely aware that there is poverty somewhere in any big city. There is also plenty of poverty in North Philly but Taibbi doesn't focus on that (and that's just as close and in the same city).

By the way I wonder how many people going to Rock Concerts are "oblivious" to all the things that go on with respect to musicians, drugs and the drug trade? Or do they just want to hear good music? That's fine, right?

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#45

Post by tptacek » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:10 PM UTC

SyneRyder wrote: post #6

For folks wondering why this is on HN, there's some interesting info in the middle of the article about the tech the new police force are using in Camden: "There are 35 microphones planted around the city that can instantly detect the exact location of a gunshot down to a few meters (and just as instantly train cameras on escape routes)."

Previously on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4034528

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#46

Post by mynewwork » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:13 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #28

SyneRyder wrote: post #6

For folks wondering why this is on HN, there's some interesting info in the middle of the article about the tech the new police force are using in Camden: "There are 35 microphones planted around the city that can instantly detect the exact location of a gunshot down to a few meters (and just as instantly train cameras on escape routes)."

Don't upvote it if you don't want to see it. That's all. That's how it works.

That's also how reddit works, and in 6 years it's gone from technology, programming and world news to memes and cat pictures.

When anyone can create an account and start voting, both moderation and reminders from existing users about appropriate content are needed to prevent or slow the move from specialized articles to general interest timewasters.

It happened to digg and reddit, I'm perfectly happy with people voicing concerns where appropriate to prevent HN from just becoming another reddit/digg/fark/somethingawful/thechive

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#47

Post by larrys » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:14 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #32

rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rust belt was news and new and insightful in 1970 or so As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. The usual response to concerns about technology or globalization putting people out of work is that it just frees them up to work on something better and more useful. "New jobs will rep…

As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. Yet some places hit by these trends (Boston and Seattle come to mind) were reinvented, and others didn't; the question of why some did and others didn't is a fascinating one, and I've seen many of the arguments from urban / geographical economists…

"The separation of the U of Delaware from Wilmington by 15 or so miles is certainly unfortunate and may help explain why Boston (innumerable universities) and Seattle (University of Washington, Seattle University) succeeded while Wilmington did not."

One of the reasons (in addition to what you have mentioned) is that the areas that were closest to the south and had good welfare and benefits attracted many poor people looking to escape poverty tended to go to the places that were closer to the south. Boston is farther than NYC, Philly, Delaware etc.

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#48

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:17 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #32

rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rust belt was news and new and insightful in 1970 or so As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. The usual response to concerns about technology or globalization putting people out of work is that it just frees them up to work on something better and more useful. "New jobs will rep…

As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. Yet some places hit by these trends (Boston and Seattle come to mind) were reinvented, and others didn't; the question of why some did and others didn't is a fascinating one, and I've seen many of the arguments from urban / geographical economists…

[deleted]

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#49

Post by Edmond » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 4:21 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #43

Edmond wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Camden is more or less under state control so it is right to blame the state. NJ has an awful track record when it comes to how it treats its urban areas. Newark, which would be considered a crown jewel anywhere else has been left to rot for 40yrs. The state is very unequal in terms of investment to various areas, basically you can quickly tell where the high income earners live and where the rest live wher…

According to the article Christie was unable to take over the schools in Camden, and took over the police force in 2013. Blaming him for not fixing the problems of Camden in less than a year is a little silly. Complaining that NJ didn't force Hoboken to subsidize Newark is silly - San Fransisco and Toronto didn't subsidize Camden either, but I don't see you blaming them.

In a single comment you've managed to deploy all the dismissive language anti-government folks use to derail meaningful discussion.

Complaining:

Pointing out problems isn't complaining.

Subsidize:

Investing and subsidizing aren't the same thing. When the arena was built in Newark I am sure some state help was involved, the end result has been an attraction that brings hockey fans to Newark who otherwise would have no reason to be there and patronize businesses.

I am not sure where SF and Toronto factor into what goes on in NJ.

Blaming:

You mean as opposed to the poor citizens taking responsibility and rebuilding the city?

Re: Camden, New Jersey: America's Most Desperate Town

#50

Post by akgerber » Tue, Feb 11, 2014, 5:01 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #29

rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rust belt was news and new and insightful in 1970 or so As someone living in a city gutted by de-industrialization and the drug trade (Wilmington, DE), I think it's news that 40 years later, these places are still in poor shape. The usual response to concerns about technology or globalization putting people out of work is that it just frees them up to work on something better and more useful. "New jobs will rep…

The problem with "fully a quarter" is WRT Chicago they're talking about a metro area, Skokie and Romeoville, maybe Lake Geneva, heck maybe Milwaukee... I'm talking about actually in the city, walk to work, urban renewal stuff, not suburb a long commute away. Like the north side of Milwaukee or south side of Chicago. Not say, Chenequa (which is a rather wealthy suburb of Milwaukee, more or less, but is technically par…

There are plenty of middle class people left in the city of Milwaukee, on the East Side, and in Bay View, and the Third Ward, and Downtown, beyond.

MPS has an 81% student poverty rate, not 90+%[0]. Good students in MPS can access the magnet schools, where, to use my sister as an example, one can complete sufficient IB classes to get a BS and MS within 4 years, leading up to a PhD from MIT. Marquette University HS, the high-end Jesuit school, has tuition of $11,000. And the cost of private school is reflected in the lower home prices and property taxes in the city of Milwaukee.

Milwaukee isn't a shining city on a hill, but there's plenty of good living to be had there, and at a very low price compared to many cities. It has more than its share of problems due to un- and underemployment since its industrial fall, but it's nothing like Camden.

[0]http://www.milwaukeenns.org/2013/08/09/poverty-crime-contrib...