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Bootstrap 3.1 released

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Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#131

Post by mcallan83 »

owenversteeg wrote: post #130
mcallan83 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Bootstrap without jQuery all the time, so that is not true. I also make custom builds for just the stuff I need to keep file size down. Anyways, I just looked at Min and was a bit disappointed. The demo page has the look and feel of a framework that might have existed 10 years ago -- it doesn't look polished at all and I would never even attempt to try it out based on that demo. The 2 sites built with the frame…

Regarding jQuery, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it required for dropdowns and responsive navbars? Regarding Min, I'm wondering what you think looks 2004-ish about it. If it's the buttons, those are in for a change; please cast your vote in the button design thread here: https://github.com/OwenVersteeg/min/issues/6 If it's anything else, just let me know (via an issue or a comment) and I can fix it. I'm always ope…

It is required for dropdowns and the responsive navbar.

Also, I didn't mean to be talking down on your framework. I have personally never made a front end framework or released any sort of open source project, so it is cool that you have done that. All I am really trying to say is there is a tradeoff between file size and what a framework can offer.

You have chosen to go the smallest possible file size route, which is cool, but I would never use it in it's current state. The page advertises support for IE5.5 and it shows. It looks like something that was developed when IE5.5 was around. It is easy to support a single text input in IE5, but try building out a complex form in CSS and see what happens in old IE. Also, nothing looks finely polished. I just see a bunch of colored rectangles filled with text. There are no examples of typography beside the header tags. The padding\margins on buttons and alerts look funny. The forms are completely lacking. There is an issue with the navbar where the entire thing slides up a pixel or two when the dropdowns appear. The icons are just standard unicode characters that really have little use on the web and look dated. Again, I don't mean to knock your framework, I just think it needs a bit of polish and it is unfair to say it offers most of what bootstrap does. I'd also highly recommend you put normalize in there.

I'll defiantly keep an eye out for version 2! Good luck!

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#132

Post by owenversteeg »

mcallan83 wrote: post #131
owenversteeg wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding jQuery, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it required for dropdowns and responsive navbars? Regarding Min, I'm wondering what you think looks 2004-ish about it. If it's the buttons, those are in for a change; please cast your vote in the button design thread here: https://github.com/OwenVersteeg/min/issues/6 If it's anything else, just let me know (via an issue or a comment) and I can fix it. I'm always ope…

It is required for dropdowns and the responsive navbar. Also, I didn't mean to be talking down on your framework. I have personally never made a front end framework or released any sort of open source project, so it is cool that you have done that. All I am really trying to say is there is a tradeoff between file size and what a framework can offer. You have chosen to go the smallest possible file size route, which i…

Hmm. I'll add a better main/examples page for v2, and some parts are going to be spruced up. The icons have to be unicode due to size restrictions, unfortunately. I don't see an issue with the padding/margins for the buttons and alerts, and I can't reproduce the navbar issue. Could you take a screenshot and describe what you think it should look like?

For the forms and the alerts, I'm not sure what I should add. A border-radius? A shadow? Maybe I should open a voting issue similar to the button thread.

Regarding normalize.css, I'm not sure why I would add it - Min already covers most of what it does and I'm not sure what benefit I'd get from it, seeing as adding it'd double the size of Min.

Finally, thank you very much for your feedback!

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#133

Post by owenversteeg »

lowboy wrote: post #126
owenversteeg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Min has dropdowns and all of Bootstrap's navbar options. Progress bars, pagination, and button groups are all coming for Min 2 or Min 2.5, although demand for them is very low. 2. Nope, Bootstrap requires jQuery. This is the exact error message I get trying to run an official Bootstrap example page without jQuery: "Error: Bootstrap requires jQuery" 3. Sure, but will you? That's a common argument against Min, but I…

1. So you've matched a number of good features that Bootstrap has, but you seem to be missing: - Responsive grid control based on browser size (.col-md, -sm, -xsm, -lg) - Nestable grids (apparently) - Fluid container - Offsetting columns - Column ordering - Subheading/secondary heading text - Lead body copy - Text alignment classes - Blockquote styling - List styling (no discs, inline) - Description elements (dl/dt/d…

When I said that Min was near feature parity with Bootstrap, I was referring to the percent of use cases covered (which, in my mind, is the more important metric.) Min covers the vast majority of use cases that I've seen Bootstrap used for. Min also doesn't include CSS classes for offsetting or text alignment, as this is fairly trivial. That said, Min will soon be exactly at feature parity of Bootstrap (soon is relative; it will be by the release of Min v2.0)

Regarding jQuery, it's needed for the responsive navbar and navbar dropdowns, two fairly common use cases. It's also included in most Bootstrap sites, even if it's not used for anything else. (This is based on a quick survey of Bootstrap Expo.)

Unfortunately, from my informal survey of websites using Min, most seem to use the entire framework. That said, this makes some sense since they only save a maximum of ~700 bytes by picking and choosing, but for other projects (like Bootstrap) it makes less sense.

I'll take a closer look at normalize.css later this weekend. Thanks for the advice about a 12-column grid.

p.s. If you wouldn't mind, could you take a second to vote in Min's button design thread: https://github.com/OwenVersteeg/min/issues/6? Thanks!

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#134

Post by glebm »

steveklabnik wrote: post #66
WalterSear wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I moved away from Sass >because Fortunately, now there is node-sass and it's grunt wrapper, making for vastly faster transpiling process. https://github.com/andrew/node-sass

There's been work to re-write sass in C (or C++), preliminary reports showed it being 4,000x faster, IIRC.

As of a few days ago it is complete enough to compile bootstrap-sass :) https://github.com/hcatlin/libsass/issues/231#issuecomment-3...

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#135

Post by admnor »

freshyill wrote: post #54
baby wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answer: Don't bother for large websites. Get normalize.css If you really need grids, you can get a lighter framework.

This is the answer I've been hoping to hear.

Well hurrah for the internet. Wait long enough and read selectively enough and you can always get the answer you want.

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#136

Post by amouat »

mdo wrote: post #127
amouat wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I phrased it badly when I said "minified". The HTML is available, but it's not nicely formatted - all the whitespace is gone etc. I understand this saves a few bytes but it makes life harder for anyone that tries to edit it. It seems so strange to me that no-one else is complaining that I wonder if a nicely formatted version is available and I'm being stupid. EDIT: This seems to have changed! Either I did something r…

We've not changed anything. Unsure what you saw, but the examples' HTML has never been minified.

The examples seem fine now. But I swear it was different last week - I can't have hallucinated adding indentation to an example file for a demo website last week! I really don't understand what happened as no-one else seems to be complaining...

Re: Bootstrap 3.1 released

#137

Post by ptr »

noir_lord wrote: post #128
ptr wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. But why limit it to internal apps? I do b2b solutions and the services I write using Bootstrap has higher UX quality than what people there are used to. Sometimes I just change the background image and keep the default Bootstrap look. Also, it's so much fun picking out components and putting them together to make it looke awesome.

Have a look (if you haven't already seen it) at the SB-Admin theme (v1 and v2), v1 in particular is just a very thing wrapper over stock bootstrap (so much so you can just swap out the core js and css as they get released). It adds a very dashboard-esque appearance without any bloat.

Awesome! Thanks.
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