Live data from Hacker News

Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

english.stackexchange.com

141–150 of 200 posts

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's extremely interesting! So people speak in the third person ("did mother want me to get mother's groceries"), or is this a second person still?

It's even more interesting when we remember that in western culture is rude to speak about a present participating person using third person pronouns (- "hey, I'm standing right here!").

Using "sir" everywhere you'd say "you" feels like the same sort of high respect that merkitt was describing in Sinhalese. I think the reason it comes across as rude is that the only context in which you'd be likely to hear someone do that in person is to mock. In the same way, some men become offended if you refer to them as "sir" at all, even upon first greeting, possibly out of a suspicion that they are being mocked.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#142
post #39

This relates well to one of the fascinating things I realized while learning German: the fact that so many English and German words and sounds have phonetic connections, coming from their common Germanic ancestry. For example, the letter "d" in German corresponding to "th" in English: die/der/das -> the drei -> three Donner -> thunder Ding -> thing daher -> therefore and, most relevant to this discussion: du -> thou…

Any Danish speakers here? It should be even closer to English as that's where the Angles and Saxons are from.

The fact that the Angles and Saxons were from an area that is currently Denmark means nothing. Territories, country borders and the languages and cultures occupying them have changed significantly in the north of Europe after the collapse of the roman empire to the present day.

The angles and saxons spoke a western germanic language, whereas modern danish is a northern germanic language.

EDIT: as a side node: Frisian is the language commonly regarded as being closest to English

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's extremely interesting! So people speak in the third person ("did mother want me to get mother's groceries"), or is this a second person still?

It's even more interesting when we remember that in western culture is rude to speak about a present participating person using third person pronouns (- "hey, I'm standing right here!").

"Western culture"... In Portuguese too you say to your teacher "can the teacher open the window please?"

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#144
post #120
post #20

In Polish, you don't use the plural vy as a formal singular. In Russian you do. I took Polish lessons at one point and my teacher would wince every time I accidentally called him vy . He told me the Russians used to force Poles to address each other that way in their own parliament. So sensitive was he to this long-past linguistic oppression that he couldn't help but be offended when an English speaker who happened t…

I don't understand - why would it be offensive to have to use the formal case with each other in a parliament? Is the idea that вы ('vih'/'vy') implies formality/lack of familiarity and the Polish wanted a more conversational tone in their governance?

I think the point was that it was Russian, not Polish.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#145
post #39

This relates well to one of the fascinating things I realized while learning German: the fact that so many English and German words and sounds have phonetic connections, coming from their common Germanic ancestry. For example, the letter "d" in German corresponding to "th" in English: die/der/das -> the drei -> three Donner -> thunder Ding -> thing daher -> therefore and, most relevant to this discussion: du -> thou…

Any Danish speakers here? It should be even closer to English as that's where the Angles and Saxons are from.

Yes, right here. And actually English is really a Scandinavian language (Northern Germanic), and not Western Germanic as many believe:

http://sciencenordic.com/english-scandinavian-language

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#146
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand - why would it be offensive to have to use the formal case with each other in a parliament? Is the idea that вы ('vih'/'vy') implies formality/lack of familiarity and the Polish wanted a more conversational tone in their governance?

I think the point was that it was Russian, not Polish.

....ohhhh (I feel dumb now). Thanks!

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#147
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of other English pronoun tidbits: - The third person plural set (they, their, them) was borrowed from Scandinavian (it's pretty uncommon for languages to borrow 'core' vocabulary such as pronouns). - Old English (Anglo-Saxon) also had dual forms of the pronoun. Those were lost by Chaucer's time though. Not sure if they are reflexes of early PIE dual forms or a more recent development from Proto-Germanic. [Sa…

What value does abbreviation "PIE" add to a discussion for relative laymen? I'm guessing it stands for "Proto-Indo-European", a phrase I'll bet nearly no one outside advanced degree word nerds (invoked lovingly) uses or has heard. Sorry for the soapbox.

I knew what it meant and don't have any advanced degree. I suspect that's because the very first comment to the linked question is, literally, "PIE = Proto-Indo-European"

If you don't read the page people are talking about, don't be surprised if you can't follow the conversation.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#149
post #39

This relates well to one of the fascinating things I realized while learning German: the fact that so many English and German words and sounds have phonetic connections, coming from their common Germanic ancestry. For example, the letter "d" in German corresponding to "th" in English: die/der/das -> the drei -> three Donner -> thunder Ding -> thing daher -> therefore and, most relevant to this discussion: du -> thou…

It was a whatthehell moment for me too. I started learning German a bit later than English (we had to learn 2 foreign languages at school). Pronunciation exercises brought the epiphany here, haha. Was strange at first but then we thought - hell, after all, these languages have much in common going back some centuries. God but I hated pronouncing the umlauts.

> God but I hated pronouncing the umlauts.

That's interesting, what's your native language? I found that the umlauts map pretty well to how a lot of people from GB pronounce their Us, As, and Os. If I had to transliterate the word "use" for example I'd write that as "jüs" in German.

Re: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”?

#150
post #139
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! I think Dutch (Mix between french, german and english) is even closer to English. I am not an expert, just thinking out loud. de -> the drie -> three (ie and ee got the same pronunciation) donder -> thunder ding -> ding daarvoor -> therefore dit -> this dat -> that donderdag -> thursday vader -> father moeder -> mother and a lot more similarities: school -> school week -> week weekend -> weekend maand ->…

Your observations of dutch being closer to English in some way than German, is correct. However, saying that Dutch is mix between German, English and French is quite wrong (disclaimer: I am not Dutch). English, Dutch and German are all classified as western germanic languages, meaning they probably derived from a single ancestor language some time ago. Note that 'germanic' has nothing to do with German or Germany, a…

I was with you until appel and toth, which don't seem to be English words at all... *apple and tooth
Post reply on HN