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The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#11
post #8

The Federal Reserve purchases $85 billion in U.S. Treasury bonds—much of it worthless subprime mortgages—each month.

it's called inflating your way out of debt.

It's not going to stop till the trillion or so it cost to stop the world economy collapsing is about as valuable as the outfitting for the Spanish-American war.

When the Cypriot government tried to take 6% of everyone's bank accounts there were riots in the streets. Our go ernments are doing the same thing, but we blame bankers.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#12
The collapse of large nations is a Good Thing for the working class majority: the elite always want large nations, especially large nations with lots of racial, cultural and language divisions. That makes it easier for the elite to control the nation. It's called the 'divide et impera' strategy. That was the founding principle of the USA (see the letter from madison from jefferson wherein madison writes that the divide et impera (divide and rule) tactic is the way to rule america (madison was worth 100 mill in today's dollars when he got his inheritance; jefferson, almost the same)).

When the elite can no longer hold large, divided nations together via violence and or propaganda, the working class majority form smaller, more homogeneous, less divided nations, nations that can be more easily controlled by the workers, and less easily controlled by the elite.

Factions are the friend of the rich and the enemy of the masses.

How do the elite create factions so they can rule? Enlarge the nation; import foreigners, especially those of another race and culture; create propaganda that focuses on identity politics; etc etc.

Of course the centrally controlled dogma of the american edu-propaganda system has programmed us to feel bad about collapse of nations. Oh, it's so sad that such and such nation is breaking up.

But that is an elite-centric propaganda meme. It is always a good thing when nations collapse and fall apart--a good thing from the perspective of the working class majority. Of course the more "educated" you are, the more you take the perspective of the elite--in general.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dig this. the author laments the hubris and arrogance present in all societies, as if these exaggerations were bugs, and not features. the arrogance of the leaders and the peddling of hope are there because we are all afraid, and nobody wants to admit it. he talks about the chasm of human reality and how you get burned if you get closed to it, and i agree - it makes sense. i came out burned. i was mad at the world…

> the only way through is forward. the only way out is up. And that is going in the quote archive. Nice :)

That's great if you haven't made any mistakes. In the maze of reality you may make a wrong turn. If so, admit you are wrong, and take a new or old course.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#15
Beautifully written and optimistic, but I would like to advise caution. There is only one currency in existence: Power.

Historically, power has been proportional to a willing population. Technology allows power to be decoupled from population, allowing a very tiny minority to exert massive global power. This is the real danger, whether it takes the form of government, corporation, elites or cults.

As power asymmetry becomes more and more pronounced due to technology, the average person becomes far more prone to subjugation. This is the reality we face. This enemy is far more challenging to fight than any historical precedent.

Only time will elucidate our fates.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#16

The collapse of large nations is a Good Thing for the working class majority: the elite always want large nations, especially large nations with lots of racial, cultural and language divisions. That makes it easier for the elite to control the nation. It's called the 'divide et impera' strategy. That was the founding principle of the USA (see the letter from madison from jefferson wherein madison writes that the divi…

We could easily halve the money held by people in the united states, and not affect the wealth of 95% of individuals. And frankly, a lot of the "wealth" in our society is in moving money, and trying to convince people to buy stuff that they don't really need and does not benefit their quality of life significantly.

Not that I think a collapse is particularly likely, but even if one happens, it is very plausible that it won't really be that bad.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#18

Wow. I kind of agree - but really let's say we listen to our inner doubts, we mutiny and throw Ahab overboard, we are still on a whaler in the middle of the ocean. Now what? Our (global?) society is on course for destruction on the ocean - but that course is also sailing use closer to the promised land. Every innovation, every step closer to the singularity requires us to move faster, land more sure-footedly. Yes we…

I question whether you even read, or worse, understood what Hedges was getting at with this piece. Hedges is essentially saying we should become Marxist, but here you are saying that maybe we can redeem ourselves and survive on the 'knife edge'. Hedges addresses this by quoting Emma Goldman about half-way through. Capitalism can't be fixed with a few patches here and there, it must be abolished and trying to appear moderate makes you no different than the crew members of Pequod who played into Ahab's mania.

The assumption here is that moderation is what has prevented the course of Pequod (and decaying civilizations) from correcting their course. You question what happens when we throw Ahab overboard while ignoring the fact that each passing minute and hour you let Ahab run free, your security and well-being are threatened. Why fuss over what happens when you toss Ahab over when Ahab poses a nearly immediate threat to your well-being? That's just more of the moderation that silently rationalizes Ahab's actions.

Hedges brought up a number of revolutionary thinkers from all walks of the revolutionary left, yet proposed we follow no single system. The subtext being that we need to move away from capitalism, and generally need to move to the left. Whether that's straight up Marxism or more moderate forms of radical schools of thought are secondary or even tertiary. The point is we need to change the course of the ship immediately, or we'll just repeat history for the thousandth time.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#19

Wow. I kind of agree - but really let's say we listen to our inner doubts, we mutiny and throw Ahab overboard, we are still on a whaler in the middle of the ocean. Now what? Our (global?) society is on course for destruction on the ocean - but that course is also sailing use closer to the promised land. Every innovation, every step closer to the singularity requires us to move faster, land more sure-footedly. Yes we…

let's say we listen to our inner doubts, we mutiny and throw Ahab overboard, we are still on a whaler in the middle of the ocean. Now what?

We know what happens next, because it's already been tried. What happens when you mutiny and throw Ahab overboard: the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror; the Soviet Union; the Killing Fields in Cambodia. Revolution doesn't work because you can't fight destruction with destruction, and that's what revolution is: destruction.

Re: The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies

#20

The collapse of large nations is a Good Thing for the working class majority: the elite always want large nations, especially large nations with lots of racial, cultural and language divisions. That makes it easier for the elite to control the nation. It's called the 'divide et impera' strategy. That was the founding principle of the USA (see the letter from madison from jefferson wherein madison writes that the divi…

Thanks for the detailed comment. But could you go into a bit more detail about how the elite actually benefit from factions within a large nation? Like with an example taking today's elite into account.
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