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High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

theatlantic.com

51–60 of 123 posts

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#51
post #5

I don't get it. The article first criticizes HFT for making markets rather than speculating, incorrectly asserting that it's somehow a tax on traders (hint: don't cross the spread if you don't want to pay the "tax"). Then it reveals that HFT does speculate - they pay people to do market research and trade on that basis, which is somehow also evil. Damned if they do, damned if they don't I guess. The authors reasoning…

The author's point is clear - that HFT adds no value to society ("socially worthless"). I don't believe that he wants to prevent anything, but he suggests that trades should be taxed to create some value to society from this. He is suggesting their value (at the moment) is exclusively to the benefit of making rich people - who can pay for access early information and technology - richer.

Traders are already taxed. They make money from their trades and pay income taxes on this trading. If, however, you tax the trading itself, there will be less of it, significantly less and, most likely, the total taxes collected will decrease

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#52

I've never really understood the stock market. Is this basically how it works? A person can make or sell things, but that person is limited in the scope of their business by their available capital. Thus, they can increase their capital by either securing a business loan or by making their company "public." Securing a business loan is risky, because they will still have to pay back the loan regardless of whether or n…

I'm not entirely clear on the exact process either, but I think your initial summary has it mostly correct. There are additional complexities in Share Dividends (you receive a fraction of the companies profits proportional to your number of shares owned, which incentivises not-selling, to a point)

The basic issue that HFT (and markets in general) seek to solve is liquidity - the ability to buy & sell when you want, rather than having to wait while a deal is worked out. Consider the differences in process when buying/selling a commodity such as gold, vs buying a particular house.

There's a good overview of the mechanics & benefits of [HF]T in the 'A High Frequency Trader's Apology'[0] series, written by HN member yummyfajitas.

[0] http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_apology.html

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#53
post #32

I don't know how I personally feel about HFT. I don't have a high enough view of the system as a whole to make a determination if HFT is or will be a problem. But the mention ( http://www.cnbc.com/id/100809395 ) of Reuters selling data to customers 2 seconds before the conference calls (which occurr 5 minutes before the public receives the data) unsettles me a bit. Two seconds isn't a long time except when you consid…

But that isn't public data, it is private research.

That a university is doing the work muddies the water, but pretend that a private institute is selling access to its research, what benefit is there in telling it how to sell the data?

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#54
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear what journalism of this quality does to create some value for society. Just sayin'.

Well, fortunately for you his journal isn't a quasi-governmental entity. Unfortunately for your argument, our stock markets are. They wouldn't be remotely viable if they weren't supported and regulated by government. In exchange for the tax payer funded assistance is the social benefit of keeping the whole thing running. Or would you like to test the viability of a market with no government oversight and no governmen…

How would you build a newspaper or magazine without government enforcement of contracts and copyright?

If you want to claim an HFT shop is "quasi-governmental" because contracts are enforced, then basically every enterprise in the world is "quasi-governmental" (except for the black market).

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#55
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear what journalism of this quality does to create some value for society. Just sayin'.

Well, fortunately for you his journal isn't a quasi-governmental entity. Unfortunately for your argument, our stock markets are. They wouldn't be remotely viable if they weren't supported and regulated by government. In exchange for the tax payer funded assistance is the social benefit of keeping the whole thing running. Or would you like to test the viability of a market with no government oversight and no governmen…

Of course, our markets are subject to many regulations. I don't see how it follows that we need more regulations, specifically banning or taxing HFT. HFT is already taxed, btw. Everyone pay SEC fees in the US on stock sales and stamp tax in the UK. Traders pay income taxes on their trading income. Common sense says, unless there is some clearly demonstrated harm to society from HFT, leave it alone ( subject to existing regulations)

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#56
> I'm pretty sure—or at least I hope—that Red Auerbach was kidding when he told a gym full of kids to cheat to get ahead.

He didn't tell them to cheat. He told them that to gain competitive advantage you cheat. Games are mostly random so you can get ahead without getting competitive advantage. And you don't even need to get ahead to have almost all benefits of playing the game or even some other benefits that you can't get when you have an advantage.

I think that attitude towards cheaters is pretty much an american (maybe british?) cultural thing. Lot's of people were successfully taught to be honest, and if they can't be honest to defend the ideal of honesty by teaching honesty and never admitting their dishonesty. People who are honest about their dishonesty meet exasperation and disbelieve.

> If a company sold hedge funds an early look at their earnings, it'd be insider trading. But when a third-party like Business Wire sells hedge funds an early, albeit split-second, look at corporate earnings, it's perfectly legal. It's nuts.

Nuts is the fact that insider trading is illegal. It's unenforceable idea of how to make intrinsically unfair game appear sort of fair. It comes from the fact that shares are not as attractive as they need to be on their own. Possessing part of some company and getting dividends when the company decides to pay them is not incentive enough to shell out your cash and give it to the company that needs the cash to develop.

Since people love to participate in lotteries (before taxes it was the way money was gathered for expensive projects, people were just voluntarily were giving their money away in hopes of winning the big prize) they attached sort of casino to the idea of shares. The game is mostly: guess future ratio of supply and demand for pieces of paper. But people don't like to play in the casinos that are known to rig the games and despite the fact that price is random as it depends on so many different pieces of information some information can have some predictable influence. So casino (exchange and companies) pinky swear to prevent anyone from acting on the knowledge that gamers didn't have chance to familiarize themselves with. It works. I makes the game look fair. Of course insider still trading exists because you can't tell it apart from luck if you can't trace where the information leaked. And you can do that only rarely.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#58
post #36
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author's point is clear - that HFT adds no value to society ("socially worthless"). I don't believe that he wants to prevent anything, but he suggests that trades should be taxed to create some value to society from this. He is suggesting their value (at the moment) is exclusively to the benefit of making rich people - who can pay for access early information and technology - richer.

There is a subset of HFT (Arbitrage) that does have a value to society, because it allows you to trade between markets without fearing that you're somehow losing out (Because the arbritage players would have swept that up).

>allows you to trade between markets without fearing that you're somehow losing out //

The corollary to that is that your trades as a mere producer are never going to be [indirectly] profitable because all potential profits from varying price have been swept up by others who're not producing goods/services but instead are only operating to extract value that would otherwise go to producers.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#59

I've never really understood the stock market. Is this basically how it works? A person can make or sell things, but that person is limited in the scope of their business by their available capital. Thus, they can increase their capital by either securing a business loan or by making their company "public." Securing a business loan is risky, because they will still have to pay back the loan regardless of whether or n…

Kinda. A few points to help clarify things:

All funds that go into the business will either be debt or equity. Debt gets a guaranteed rate of return, and needs to be paid back. It gets first claim if you go under, but gets no "bonus" if you do well. Equity is an ownership stake; last in line if you go under, but with a claim on all future profits if you do well. The most obvious type of equity stake is your own, but you might say to a friend hey, go halves with me on buying a new lathe, and I'll split the profits from the furniture I make 50/50. That's another example of an equity stake, as old as the hills.

All a stock market is, is your friend saying "look, I've got the note saying I have a right to 50% of the profits of Zac's furniture business, but I'm broke right now; anyone wanna give me $50 for it?". And because in practice this sort of thing is fraught with risk, this is incredibly regulated, but that's all a stock market is; people trading the right to some uncertain future profits. (Well...kinda. There's also the question of control. Some shares give you a say in how a company is run; some don't. That's rarely a factor though.)

Notionally, incidentally, the value of a company's stock is the discounted sum of all future cash flows. If you owe 100% of Amazon, obviously you have the right to 100% of all future profit they make. If you owe 0.0001% of Amazon, you have the right to 0.0001% of all future profit they make. That's the core driver of stock prices; the market's ever-changing estimation of a companies future.

As for HFT...no, you won't make huge profits. The entire HFT industry, globally, makes chicken feed, but they make for VERY entertaining news stories, so you read about them a ton.

Anyhow, as to "why HFT is good", the answer is basically that we all benefit when markets work better, and one way markets can work better is if they are deep and liquid. In simple terms, that means that if you want to buy or sell something, there's always someone there offering to take the other side of the trade for more-or-less the market rate. Conversely, housing is a very shallow, very illiquid market. If you want to sell your $400k house, it might takes weeks or months, and you may find yourself happily paying significant fees to the broker, and maybe even selling it at a discount, just to get the damn thing to sell. If you want to sell your share of Apple stock, it will take microseconds, and you'll get very close to the market rate (ie, low commission/low spread). And while HFT doesn't have a huge impact, to the extent it has an impact, it is to make the market deeper, more liquid, and more efficient. HFT benefits the HFT traders, but it also, and this is really, really, important to grasp benefits every person who trades with the HFT traders. The losers are the "low frequency traders" who would have bought your Apple share from you a little slower and for a little less money, but lost out.

But again, this effect is minimal. The drive for HFT is the race for pennies in an increasingly efficient and competitive market. Small time investors, honestly, aren't the victims here. (Unless they're doing the day-trading, "I can pick stocks because I read a book on trend analysis" thing, in which case...they're absolutely screwed, but no more so now than before HFT. The stock market is not a game.)

And no, I wouldn't say the market is becoming "more one-sided"; that presupposes there being two sides. There aren't; there are seven billion sides. HFT does not profit at the expense of pension funds or entrepreneurs; it profits at the expense of everyone else who wanted to profit from them.

And I think the sports analogy is especially inapt. We want markets to work as efficiently as possible. We want sports to provide a spectacle. These things are not similar.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#60

Here is the problem that I have with this whole "socially useful" line of reasoning: Do we have philosopher kings or benevolent rules who are able to accurately designate social usefullness and ban or allow things on the basis of it? Is facebook or snapchat socially useful? Are hamburgers socially useful? what about french fries? Whether or not HFT is socially useful is irrelevant. Since there is no harm to a long te…

A case could be made that HFT is beneficial to society. The author is incapable of demonstrating exactly how HFT is "bad" beyond just claiming it's "bad". I submit that the speed at which a market can respond to changing conditions is a measure of it's health.

I believe many people would be surprised to learn that they're already engaging in HFT, by way of their pensions at the least. Mom and pop traders have already experienced significant disadvantages with regard to day-trading. Long-term trading is usually best for them.

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