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High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

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Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read elsewhere on here that the value of high-frequency trading is that it reduces transaction costs and increases liquidity in the market. I.e. it makes it easier for the humans to buy and sell at the prices they wish to buy and sell at. Assuming that's true, the question then becomes what are the costs and externalities of HFT and, in balance, are we willing to make those trade-offs? I haven't seen anything ad…

Since most of the people commenting here don't seem to even understand HFT, I'll just leave this here (a tutorial I wrote a while back): http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_apology.html http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_apology2.html http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_whats_broken.html

you should probably link part 2 from the end of part 1, if not it's not obvious that you did write part 2.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#42
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since most of the people commenting here don't seem to even understand HFT, I'll just leave this here (a tutorial I wrote a while back): http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_apology.html http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_apology2.html http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/hft_whats_broken.html

you should probably link part 2 from the end of part 1, if not it's not obvious that you did write part 2.

Thanks.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#43
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but now it's on you to say how long a stock should be owned for, and why that is. I mean, you could ban HFT and say that you can trade no more than once a second, or a minute, or whatever. Then people would get upset because computers could trade exactly on that second...

> Then people would get upset because computers could trade exactly on that second... I would think the way to do it would be to hold every trade open for five seconds during which time either party can cancel it.

Then we'd race to see who could cancel as close to 5s as possible.

Regulating trading on speed or time is inherently silly.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#44
I've never really understood the stock market. Is this basically how it works?

A person can make or sell things, but that person is limited in the scope of their business by their available capital. Thus, they can increase their capital by either securing a business loan or by making their company "public." Securing a business loan is risky, because they will still have to pay back the loan regardless of whether or not their company makes any money. Going public carries additional risks, but at least they aren't on the hook if the business fails - and there's an added benefit of the potential for enormous gains in capital which can further increase their business potential.

So, the person "goes public" which is extremely complex and time consuming, but let's say they are able to convince 100 people that they should each buy a "share" of the company. This means that the more money that the company earns in profit, that a little bit of that profit is "owned" by each person who owns a share. Right? (I am legitimately asking here, because as I said I really don't understand much of the way it works.)

So, now we have stock exchanges. These are places that people can buy, sell, or trade stocks of different companies for cash or other assets? I own one share of Company A and that share is worth $51 right now. Later in the day, however, we see that company A has earned a little bit more money than we thought it was going to, and so now my stock is worth $53. And I originally purchased the stock for $47, so I can potentially sell that stock for a $6 profit, or I can hang on to it and hope that it goes a little higher.

However, humans can only act so quickly, and day-traders and short-sellers act on stocks in the span of minutes or hours. So if I purchase 10,000 shares of Company B at 10:00 for $5 each, and then sell those same 10,000 shares back at 10:04 for $5.02 each, then I have made a small profit. And large firms do this hundreds of times each day, with dozens of companies, and likely tens of thousands of stocks. Right?

So, HFT does the same thing. Except, instead of making a purchase-sell decision every few minutes, they do it every few microseconds. And the returns per transaction are something like... .0000034 per share (this is a guess), but over tens of thousands of shares, and millions of times a day. Right?

This, however, is where my understanding breaks down completely.

HFT obviously benefits a company that can wield it. If my hedge fund can hire the programmers, run the servers, and buy the licenses to the data then I stand to make huge profits for a minimal investment when my HFT "algobots (lol)" do their thing. But I don't understand how this benefits the rest of the market?

I'm guessing that most of these HFT bots are not being run by small-time investors, and in fact that the trades made by small-time investors will be heavily influenced by the HFT trades that are made in-between the time the guy using E-Trades can point on the "Buy!" button and the time he can click on it.

And as a consumer who does not participate in the stock market (in that I do not have an investment portfolio, I realize that the stock market influences me regardless of whether or not I put money into it), I really don't get how HFT helps me.

What it looks like to me, is that players who have the most money, and who have the best technology will have a benefit over players who lack those resources. And so while there's no evidence (that I'm aware of) that these HFT-using companies are committing any malfeasance, it looks like the natural side-effect is that the market becomes more one-sided.

I would liken this to a professional athlete using steroids (let's pretend that steroids aren't illegal). Steroid use may stem from the player simply wanting to maximize their ability to use their body, and so they enhance their muscles and work hard to be able to control them. This player isn't actively trying to cheat, he is simply using technology to overcome a natural hurdle (let's also assume that this same player has, through hard work, literally pushed their body to the limit of what it can naturally achieve). However, a similar player who has also pushed their body to the limit is either unable or unwilling to use steroids, and thus they are unable to compete against the other due to the slight technical advantage.

Is this a true analogy?

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#46
Anybody that has looking into things like the voodoo of "doji candlestick strategy" etc realizes that the entire market is full of people reading tea leaves.

99% of the portfolio managers, investment professionals have no more luck in picking stock then HFT or these other strategies.

It's basically gambling in one form or another. The ony way to get ahead in that world is to cheat.

HFT by itself isnt; a problem. When juiced with regular insider information, front running your own clients etc it's a massively profitable biz.

The biggest crowd that hates HFT is the stock pickers, day traders (any left?) and others that work int he investment biz.

They have had a nice scam going for the last hundred years and you are ruining their party.

Haw can they go have cocktails at 4 pm every day when computer programmers are working hard all night long?

The other group of course are the luddites. Afraid of any advance in technology. Other favorite causes, "Kids and violent video games". "The 100 mile diet" "environmental anything".

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then people would get upset because computers could trade exactly on that second... I would think the way to do it would be to hold every trade open for five seconds during which time either party can cancel it.

Then we'd race to see who could cancel as close to 5s as possible. Regulating trading on speed or time is inherently silly.

> Then we'd race to see who could cancel as close to 5s as possible.

That would reduce the scope of the problem by an order of magnitude or more, because it would limit the benefit of being fast to only those trades to which you yourself are already a party and to which you so happen to receive actionable information at exactly the point in time that the trade is about to close.

And then on top of that, you can put a small penalty (e.g. 1c per share) on canceling a trade to be paid to the other party, which should put a quick end to thoughts of initiating and then canceling several million trades per second that you don't actually want to make.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#48
post #12
post #4

The primary function of the stock market is to exchange ownership (shares) in a company. It's odd that we seem to have forgotten that. What value is there in a computer owning a stock for 10 milliseconds?

That computer is artificially raising the price of the stock for someone who would buy it ... so they marginally either buy less stock, or pay more for each share. I'm not going to argue that HFT and hedge-funds are necessarily bad (though I don't buy the liquidity argument for stocks that have reasonable volumes), but I don't see how it's helping to fund the company behind the stock at all (or make it attractive to…

In the same way as the bid price is increased by HFT actors (which I think is what you're referring to), the ask price is decreased as well, and your hypothetical buyer would benefit from that.

These are two sides of the same coin, namely HFT decreasing the bid-ask spread, making trading (and thus capital allocation) more efficient across the board.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#49
Here is the problem that I have with this whole "socially useful" line of reasoning: Do we have philosopher kings or benevolent rules who are able to accurately designate social usefullness and ban or allow things on the basis of it? Is facebook or snapchat socially useful? Are hamburgers socially useful? what about french fries? Whether or not HFT is socially useful is irrelevant. Since there is no harm to a long term investor from someone trading 50 millisecond early, etc. , HFT should be left alone to do what it wants to do.

Re: High-Speed Trading Isn't About Efficiency—It's About Cheating

#50
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author's point is clear - that HFT adds no value to society ("socially worthless"). I don't believe that he wants to prevent anything, but he suggests that trades should be taxed to create some value to society from this. He is suggesting their value (at the moment) is exclusively to the benefit of making rich people - who can pay for access early information and technology - richer.

It's not clear what journalism of this quality does to create some value for society. Just sayin'.

Well, fortunately for you his journal isn't a quasi-governmental entity.

Unfortunately for your argument, our stock markets are. They wouldn't be remotely viable if they weren't supported and regulated by government. In exchange for the tax payer funded assistance is the social benefit of keeping the whole thing running.

Or would you like to test the viability of a market with no government oversight and no government enforcement of contracts?

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