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Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

lists.debian.org

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Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#91

Post by gingerlime »

CameronNemo wrote: post #36
jtchang wrote: post #17

Can anyone give a quick rundown of the different init systems? For the most part it can get confusing for a non day to day system administrator when I am trying to get a program to "run on boot". Between rc.local, init.d, run levels, etc. sometimes it is just frustrating.

I am just going to go over Upstart and systemd systemd: dependency based init system. A service is written by declaring which services need to be started for that service to start. It is also a syslog like program (journal) and a cgroups writer (cgroups are a cointainment feature of the linux kernel). It also features socket activated and bus activated services, where the init system watches for a socket or dbus bus…

> Because Upstart does not use cgroups, it can not kill all of a services children (just that service), and so zombie services might be problematic.

from my (very limited) experience with upstart, even the upstart scripts themselves can get into a unrecoverable zombie state[1], where the only workaround is to do one of the following 1) reboot ; 2) run some crazy-ass script[2] that forks processes until the right pid is grabbed to then kill it ; 3) rename the upstart script

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/10433... [2] https://gist.github.com/mitsuhiko/d55199e9b1ad7fc65504

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#92

Post by FooBarWidget »

kashchei wrote: post #77

I have to remind everyone that the author of systemd is Lennart Poettering, the guy behind Pulseaudio. I think, this is one "feature" that should outweigh all supposed benefits of this program. For those unfamiliar with Pulseaudio development, it's a third-generation audio subsystem (after OSS and ALSA with JACK forming two previous ones, and ESD being the beginning of the third) that is famous for overcomplicated, n…

So distributions chose to bundle Pulseaudio before it was sufficiently stable, and this is all Lennart's fault and he must forever burn in hell with no way to ever, ever fix or improve things?

The Lennart hate is ridiculous. This time, even Linux kernel hackers think systemd is a good idea. What are your credentials?

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#93

Post by kechit »

jordigh wrote: post #43
lucb1e wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is huge though. I felt I was spending way too much time watching this and hoped it was getting to a close, while I around message 250 out of 700. (Of part 1 it seems?!)

Yeah, endless debate. Welcome to Debian decision-making. :-)

:)

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#94

Post by FooBarWidget »

ekidd wrote: post #83
tszming wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use coreos/systemd but some people run into issues like this: https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/issues/3629

Well, that involves running a weird nested stack: The CoreOS systemd, wrapped around a bunch of docker instances, one of which is trying to run the arch Linux systemd inside the container as well. For what it's worth, Docker containers are generally not complete running machines with their own init system. Instead, they're typically a single top-level process running in an isolated container. Basically, they work mor…

Exactly. I don't expect Upstart or even SysV init (in the configuration as provided by distributions) to work well inside Docker either.

For an example how you should build a Docker container, take a look at http://phusion.github.io/baseimage-docker/

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#95

Post by FooBarWidget »

SEJeff wrote: post #67
raikage wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When RedHat decides to switch to DEB

And why would Reshat want to move to a clearly inferior solution? Next you'll say they want to replace the super simple kickstart with preseed. Blasphemy I say!

To be fair, it did take me 15 minutes to write my first RPM. Documentation is pretty good.

Writing my first Debian package, on the other hand, took me a day. Documentation is horrible. All tutorials are outdated. All the documents throw tons of jargon at me and just expect that I understand them. The tooling consists of 300 different tools with a lot of overlapping functionality, mostly for historical and backward-compatibility reasons. Debuilder, pbuilder, dpkg-buildpackage, debhelper, cbbs.... what? Learning all this stuf was a nightmare, while RPM was pretty straightforward.

Furthermore, Debian packaging tools don't have a preprocessor. It seems they really expect me to repackage my app separately for every distribution version. RPM on the other hand has a builtin preprocessor so that I can customize my specfile on a per-distribution basis with only a single file and a single tool. I ended up writing my own preprocessor for Debian packages, but something tells me I shouldn't have to.

On the other hand, RPM does not support "Recommended" and "Suggested" dependencies which are very useful. Neither does it support OR statements in dependency specifications. This latter sucks, a lot.

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#96

Post by viraptor »

shimon_e wrote: post #85
nixgeek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a while, Ubuntu isn't too prone to changing things just because Debian (upstream) decided to do something.

Do you think ubuntu will be hiring package maintainers to rewrite all the init scripts so it can continue importing debian packages into universe?

But they already do. I'm not sure where the big change is.

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#97

Post by crististm »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #92
kashchei wrote: post #77

I have to remind everyone that the author of systemd is Lennart Poettering, the guy behind Pulseaudio. I think, this is one "feature" that should outweigh all supposed benefits of this program. For those unfamiliar with Pulseaudio development, it's a third-generation audio subsystem (after OSS and ALSA with JACK forming two previous ones, and ESD being the beginning of the third) that is famous for overcomplicated, n…

So distributions chose to bundle Pulseaudio before it was sufficiently stable, and this is all Lennart's fault and he must forever burn in hell with no way to ever, ever fix or improve things? The Lennart hate is ridiculous. This time, even Linux kernel hackers think systemd is a good idea. What are your credentials?

Well, when Lennart says that *BSD is irrelevant as if he was the judge of that... I don't see why he shouldn't be able take a little heat. After all - he is the god that wrote, you know, PulseAudio and Systemd.

There are other hackers around that are not "Linux hackers" who might have a different view about the quality of Linux space. I tend to agree with them.

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#99

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

enko wrote: post #72
jordigh wrote: post #8

For a fun retelling of the events (I think this only works on Firefox): http://aceattorney.sparklin.org/jeu.php?id_proces=57684

That was absolutely great, and it is fascinating how the animated storytelling makes a complicated, lengthy debate so much more accessible. I wonder if other complicated debates, especially political, could be presented in such a format, and if this would have a positive effect for informed democracy?

Heh. This is the power of the Visual Novel medium! :)

Re: Debian committee members vote for systemd as init system

#100

Post by FooBarWidget »

crististm wrote: post #97
FooBarWidget wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So distributions chose to bundle Pulseaudio before it was sufficiently stable, and this is all Lennart's fault and he must forever burn in hell with no way to ever, ever fix or improve things? The Lennart hate is ridiculous. This time, even Linux kernel hackers think systemd is a good idea. What are your credentials?

Well, when Lennart says that *BSD is irrelevant as if he was the judge of that... I don't see why he shouldn't be able take a little heat. After all - he is the god that wrote, you know, PulseAudio and Systemd. There are other hackers around that are not "Linux hackers" who might have a different view about the quality of Linux space. I tend to agree with them.

What does this suddenly have to do with BSD? kashchei claims that Lennart is incapable of ever producing good code and that all his creations must therefore die. Nothing about BSD.
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