Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

boston.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 120 posts

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#71

Post by eli_gottlieb »

goodcanadian wrote: post #35
marvin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

You raise some interesting points. As an employer, do I have a moral obligation to help an under performing employee through a bad period? Many, though not all, would say, "yes." Let me rephrase the question. Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No," though there may be an argument about the present value of what the empl…

>Let me rephrase the question. Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No," though there may be an argument about the present value of what the employee can provide me with in the future, perhaps in terms of special skills or increased loyalty.

This whole line of argument ignores reality. The normal, real action is actually to pay the employee less than the value he is currently providing you.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#72

Post by marvin »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #63
marvin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

>What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. I didn't communicate my point well. My point wasn't that "it's OK to treat people like crap because: PROFIT!!" I'm the last person to claim that profit justifies everything. My point was: If Uber doesn't impo…

Thanks for your long reply. I think we are mostly in agreement. It seems like you are more cynical me, and I get the impression that you probably have less experience interacting with "the bottom percentile" (it's really the bottom 10-percentile) than me. I don't think this is surprising if you are truly better than 95% of all developers you work with - this places you in the elite of an elite group, and there is a very long way down to those who e.g. made a stupid decision and graduated with the wrong degree, or have some benign (mental or physical) health condition that leaves them unable to sustainably work more than 30 hours a week. Not to mention everyone who grow up in harsher social conditions.

But these people are real, most of them are still within the "normal" and their problems are more complex than missing interpersonal skills. I would not want to live in a world that treats "under-performing" (implication: "performing" is our raison d'être) people as second-rate citizens.

But again, our views on the economics of it could probably be reconciled even if our perspectives are different.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#73

Post by darklajid »

teej wrote: post #38
alonmower wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed. I also think Uber should be slightly more explicit in their ratings screen (e.g. Bad Experience, Good Experience, Exceptional Experience) If someone has a problem with a ride, the only thing they really care about is letting Uber know that the ride was terrible (I bet the rating distribution clusters heavily around 1, 4 and 5 stars). Looking at passenger rating histories should also play a role in how…

Uber does this already. If you rate 3 or below they ask you to classify the complaint and leave a comment.

But that misses their own threshold. Rate 4 and you're not asked a thing (if I understand you correctly), but the driver might be kicked out if enough people do the same, right?

If there 4.5 is the minimum average rating, everyone not rating 5 should be asked what was wrong. Or .. fix the rating so that not everything needs 5 out of 5.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#74

Post by Gravityloss »

goodcanadian wrote: post #35
marvin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

You raise some interesting points. As an employer, do I have a moral obligation to help an under performing employee through a bad period? Many, though not all, would say, "yes." Let me rephrase the question. Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No," though there may be an argument about the present value of what the empl…

That Uber can keep doing that (requiring 4.5 star averages) could be a symptom of a power imbalance: there is a huge surplus of qualified and willing potential employees to them so they can be picky.

That means that at the moment, there is less competition in the business than there could be (competitors could be nicer places to work, and hence could get by for example with paying less to workers, and be cheaper to customers as a result), or there are simply too much workers available compared to the amount of work available.

It's probably some mix of those. I've also noticed that in low skilled jobs, there can be many companies with very different cultures, and people pick the one where they fit in. They might all pay roughly the same and they don't differentiate that much with their service quality, because there isn't that much to differentiate with. Despite all the talk about excellence, the customers are not willing to pay much for any cosmetic extras.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#75

Post by drcross »

dredmorbius wrote: post #61
mindslight wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, rating systems where the top vote is the "normal" vote are fucked up. There's always noise in how each party perceives the transaction. As the supplier, the only thing you can do is kiss the ass of everyone in hopes of placating the overly negative ones. And as a buyer, you're unable to reward truly above-and-beyond service.

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a great essay on the challenges of rating systems, in "The Servant Problem - Oriental Style" (included in The View from Serendip : http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780345271082-1 ) It's a bit more nuanced than this, but the fundamental dilemma is: • An overly negative review essentially dooms someone to never working again. • An overly positive one leads to sticky questions from the next person…

And this, dear reader, is why we need bitcoin micropayments built into a browser.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#76

Post by damon_c »

marincounty wrote: post #49
rdl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd personally be annoyed if my UberX driver came in a Wrangler; one of the most uncomfortable-as-passenger cars on the market. A Camry or something is totally fine; doesn't have to be a Tesla, but should be something relatively quiet and comfortable.

Really? Americans have gotten soft. I once had a date who questioned what I was driving; I took out her roommate instead. I guess we all have our own "Comfy" zone though?

He still had a 4.3 so they haven't gotten too soft!

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#77

Post by notahacker »

baddox wrote: post #68
mindslight wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, rating systems where the top vote is the "normal" vote are fucked up. There's always noise in how each party perceives the transaction. As the supplier, the only thing you can do is kiss the ass of everyone in hopes of placating the overly negative ones. And as a buyer, you're unable to reward truly above-and-beyond service.

Or you can just as easily phrase this the other way around. If you were completely satisfied by your service, why should you give less than the highest rating available? Are you just subtracting stars because the driver didn't do things which you wouldn't expect the driver to do?

It seems pretty stupid to have a multi-point rating scale that doesn't distinguish between the driver that gave you polite, timely and safe service and the driver that did all that but additionally gave you fantastic advice about the city and insisted on carrying your luggage up a flight of steep steps at the end.

It's even worse to have a points scale where not awarding the first driver the same as the second moves him a few percentage points closer to losing his livelihood.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#78

Post by ceejayoz »

Karunamon wrote: post #48
HarryHirsch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening here is that Uber and your favorite pizza taxi are littering. They know that a fair share of their drivers do not carry a commercial liability policy. When an Uber driver has an accident, the next thing that will happen is that their insurance denies the claim, and you have to claim against your uninsured motorist policy. Good luck to anyone who doesn't have such a policy because they don't own a car…

>Hey, uninsured motorist rates just went up! I wish they didn't do that, and instead Uber fares and pizza prices went up because I don't use them. They have no business imposing externalities on me. Indeed. If someone drives in such a way as to be uninsured, shame on them. Still not the company's fault for the individual's lack of responsibility.

> Still not the company's fault for the individual's lack of responsibility.

You could very easily argue that not requiring drivers to prove they've got commercial vehicle insurance is a lack of responsibility on Uber's part.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#79

Post by jellicle »

So let's do the math. $21/hour for 7 hours, $150/day, gross.

I found some estimates online that a taxi driver might drive about 150 miles per day. Let's say 125 since this was sort of a short day. The IRS mileage allowance is 56 cents per mile - this is supposed to be an "all-in" number that includes all of the costs of owning and operating a vehicle. So that's $70/day for vehicle costs which the operator will have to pay - fuel, repairs, tires, whatever.

So we'll knock that $150 down to $80. So he's earning around $12/hour, before taxes, doing one of the more dangerous professions (cab driver is more dangerous than police officer, for example), and he's doing it completely uninsured - if he cracks up that Tesla during an Uber trip his insurer is not going to pay out on it. If the Tesla is stolen during an Uber trip his insurer is not going to pay out on it. If he has one accident, ever, he'll lose more than he could ever earn from a lifetime of working for Uber.

> 1. Never, ever try to call Uber with problems… because they don’t even have phones and there is very little if any reason to talk to them.

And Uber won't even pick up the phone to talk to drivers.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#80

Post by theorique »

oostevo wrote: post #53
theorique wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what "exceptional" even means? I expect a driver to get me from A to B, and notice whether I'm interested in talking (in which case talk and be friendly) or not interested in talking (in which case don't talk please). A half-pint of water is nice but hardly necessary - it won't convert a horrible ride into a great one, and its absence doesn't make a great ride a bad one. So much is outside the control of the…

An example of an exceptional driver: I once took a longer Uber Black ride to pick up my wife a few towns away, who was quite sick. Once I mentioned this to the driver, he drove noticeably more 'efficiently', offered me his phone to call to check on her once mine had died, and waited outside the building briefly to make sure everything was ok. Also, I've got a bit of prior race driving experience, and this guy clearly…

Excellent example.

I think it this case you did it right with a letter to customer service.

When the "expectation" is a 4/5 star rating, then the average is generally 4.6-4.7 stars and there's no way to distinguish "normal, good service" from truly "above and beyond".

Additionally, if the "above and beyond" just gains a 5 star review, that doesn't really give the feedback needed for extraordinary service.

Post reply on HN