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What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

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Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#61
post #4

Interesting. He drives his Jeep, falls to a 4.3 rating and is about to get released from the service. He starts driving his Tesla, finds that passengers start treating him as an equal and give him a perfect 5.0 every time. Somehow that's not at all surprising and disappointing at the same time.

In general, rating systems where the top vote is the "normal" vote are fucked up. There's always noise in how each party perceives the transaction. As the supplier, the only thing you can do is kiss the ass of everyone in hopes of placating the overly negative ones. And as a buyer, you're unable to reward truly above-and-beyond service.

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a great essay on the challenges of rating systems, in "The Servant Problem - Oriental Style" (included in The View from Serendip: http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780345271082-1)

It's a bit more nuanced than this, but the fundamental dilemma is:

• An overly negative review essentially dooms someone to never working again.

• An overly positive one leads to sticky questions from the next person to hire them (whom you probably know socially).

Clarke's solution is to write ... very closely ... an accurate but difficult to parse recommendation. As I recall, the essay ends with him noting that a household servant he'd dismissed some years before (pursuing a "flim" career) had since returned, to the pleasure of both parties.

Sadly I can't find a copy online -- seems that at a $1.78 purchase price the friction of commerce is excessive here for a 50 year old essay.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#62
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair here, unless you're driving a luxury car like a Tesla, your depreciation, gas and maintenance costs are still probably $5/hour or less. So, call it $16/hour, and it's still well above minimum wage and most living wages. You're adding extra danger due to potential crash concerns etc, but I don't really know how to best quantify that. http://commutesolutions.org/external/calc.html

Your assumptions may be incorrect. Here is an article that was on HN a couple months ago: http://brent-noorda.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-much-does-lyft-... According to Consumer Reports (see linked article), the median car costs about $9k per year for the first 5 years (including the sticker price). That comes out to $0.75 per mile--not an insignificant amount. Driving 30 miles per hour, that's $22.50 in costs.

Those costs are accurate, but a major part of the expense is depreciation. The longer you own the car (and the less you drive it), the lower those expenses are. Parking (including the land or rent you pay to your garage) is another big hidden expense.

Automobile reliability has, generally, advanced worlds from where it was in the 1970s. It used to be that getting 100,000 miles was a significant accomplishment, now it's pretty much expected, and having a car run 200,000 miles isn't uncommon. I'd had a vehicle I ended up selling to a friend which went 280k before it was finally cash-for-clunkered. In that time, it went through a couple of radiators, a couple of exhaust manifold repairs, and a transmission (protip: keep 'em lubed and watch for oil leaks). And a few sets of brake pads, possibly a clutch. But all told, pretty remarkable.

In the 2000s you saw some significant improvements in safety (ubiquitous airbags, ABS, and traction control), but not a whole lot else.

That said: doing a lot of city driving in traffic is fairly high-risk and high-wear on a car.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#63
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see that at all. It's not that humans are replaceable as much as the fact that each driver's performance (and corresponding rating) is crucial to their continued employment. I have no problem with that at all given the fact that Uber's image and product both rely on having good customer experiences. If Uber were more concerned with providing a living to its employees, then they likely wouldn't last very long…

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

>What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up.

I didn't communicate my point well.

My point wasn't that "it's OK to treat people like crap because: PROFIT!!" I'm the last person to claim that profit justifies everything.

My point was: If Uber doesn't impose serious quality control on its drivers, then even the best drivers will fail to make a living wage, because the perceived value of the Uber service (by customers) will drop with every bad experience.

Uber is creating a market for its service by being better than a taxi. Better in all ways. It takes serious differentiation to convince people to change their current habits.

>Otherwise, there needs to be a certain degree of compromise.

If you're talking about non-customer-facing jobs, or even basic retail jobs where the expectations aren't high, then absolutely.

If you're a giant corporation and someone has been working with you for years and they go through a bad spot, then sure.

If you're trying to create a "new kind of taxi" and part of your business plan is that everyone has a superb experience, then you have no choice but to fire people who can't live up to your goal.

The ex-CEO had a rating of 4.3 (the cutoff mentioned in the article was 4.5), but they didn't "immediately fire him;" he had a chance to bring his rating up, and he did. It sounds like there's some compromise already built into the system. Not to mention the minimum 40 ratings before they require a 4.5.

At the end of the day, it's a business with specific goals. Some businesses can employ people who only rate a 3.0 and still meet their goals; some can't.

>you go through a really messy breakup and perform at 50% capacity for six months.

Two months in my case (happened once; was going to leave the job in 2-3 months regardless, but it's the only job I've ever had that they weren't begging me to stay). But you are right that, with my awesome specialized software skill-set, I was able to pick up a new job in just a couple months, and at this point I can practically write my own ticket.

If your hypothetical break-up survivor is pissing off customers, though, Uber has no choice but to fire him or her if they want to meet their goals. How else are they going to keep the fleet-wide ratings at or above 4.5 stars, which is likely their goal?

Honestly I do wonder where people in, say, the bottom percentile of job or interpersonal skills (or both) can get work. I'd fully support a "living wage for everyone" concept, at least if it can be shown to work at some scale, to sidestep this problem. Or a government "works" program that guaranteed a job to everyone who wanted one (in conjunction with a disability system, of course, that could provide support to people who didn't have the mobility or brain function to perform even menial labor).

But how the system works when it's working well (i.e., prior to the 1970s [1]) is that there are more jobs than employees, and so the jobs have to make due with who they can find, and/or the jobs have to be attractive enough to get the applicants. It's how the programming market is right now: I know that most developers have really basic skills compared to mine (probably only 1 in 20 professional developers that I encounter are even in the same ballpark), but even the least productive developers get great salaries and benefits.

And how the system needs to change is that workers need to own the companies they work for. Then their personal motivations line up with that of the company, and employee/owners who have a bad breakup maybe spend six months collecting a lower salary and working part time until they get back on their feet. Or maybe because of their closer support network (employees who own a piece of the action probably will stick around longer -- and care more about their coworkers) they don't take six months to get over a break-up.

I agree that things need to be fixed. I don't agree that a company should be required (morally or otherwise) to shoot itself in the foot to achieve social justice.

[1] A long watch, but totally worth it if these questions are of interest to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-KqeU8nzn4

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see that at all. It's not that humans are replaceable as much as the fact that each driver's performance (and corresponding rating) is crucial to their continued employment. I have no problem with that at all given the fact that Uber's image and product both rely on having good customer experiences. If Uber were more concerned with providing a living to its employees, then they likely wouldn't last very long…

> If Uber were more concerned with providing a living to its employees, then they likely wouldn't last very long as a profitable business. Well, in a competitive market, something has to fall to the cost of the inputs required to produce it. Whether it should be Uber's profit margins or driver's wages is probably a value judgment.

Profit wasn't really my point. I said a lot more here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7200553

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#65
post #4

Interesting. He drives his Jeep, falls to a 4.3 rating and is about to get released from the service. He starts driving his Tesla, finds that passengers start treating him as an equal and give him a perfect 5.0 every time. Somehow that's not at all surprising and disappointing at the same time.

In general, rating systems where the top vote is the "normal" vote are fucked up. There's always noise in how each party perceives the transaction. As the supplier, the only thing you can do is kiss the ass of everyone in hopes of placating the overly negative ones. And as a buyer, you're unable to reward truly above-and-beyond service.

I think ideally the ratings should be done by machine learning instead. Rather than returning an average of previous ratings, return a prediction like "there is a 50% chance you will like this and 10% dislike it (40% chance you don't rate it at all.)

This way a small sample size doesn't distort the rating too much, and predictions can be customized for every individual, and it's somewhat resistant to fake reviews, if they can be picked up on by the computer. It also gives you an incentive to rate and what you actually think.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening here is that Uber and your favorite pizza taxi are littering. They know that a fair share of their drivers do not carry a commercial liability policy. When an Uber driver has an accident, the next thing that will happen is that their insurance denies the claim, and you have to claim against your uninsured motorist policy. Good luck to anyone who doesn't have such a policy because they don't own a car…

>Hey, uninsured motorist rates just went up! I wish they didn't do that, and instead Uber fares and pizza prices went up because I don't use them. They have no business imposing externalities on me. Indeed. If someone drives in such a way as to be uninsured, shame on them. Still not the company's fault for the individual's lack of responsibility.

Their business model is predicated on externalising many of the costs forced on taxi drivers. Claiming they have no responsibility for crafting and operating a business model that's designed to socalise costs is horseshit.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#67
post #4

Interesting. He drives his Jeep, falls to a 4.3 rating and is about to get released from the service. He starts driving his Tesla, finds that passengers start treating him as an equal and give him a perfect 5.0 every time. Somehow that's not at all surprising and disappointing at the same time.

Also not to be under estimated is that he was driving drunk people when his rating was tanking; they rate lower.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#68
post #4

Interesting. He drives his Jeep, falls to a 4.3 rating and is about to get released from the service. He starts driving his Tesla, finds that passengers start treating him as an equal and give him a perfect 5.0 every time. Somehow that's not at all surprising and disappointing at the same time.

In general, rating systems where the top vote is the "normal" vote are fucked up. There's always noise in how each party perceives the transaction. As the supplier, the only thing you can do is kiss the ass of everyone in hopes of placating the overly negative ones. And as a buyer, you're unable to reward truly above-and-beyond service.

Or you can just as easily phrase this the other way around. If you were completely satisfied by your service, why should you give less than the highest rating available? Are you just subtracting stars because the driver didn't do things which you wouldn't expect the driver to do?

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#69
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

You raise some interesting points. As an employer, do I have a moral obligation to help an under performing employee through a bad period? Many, though not all, would say, "yes." Let me rephrase the question. Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No," though there may be an argument about the present value of what the empl…

> Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No,"

The problem here is that you're asking economists moral questions.

Re: What happened when the CEO of a Boston burrito chain became an Uber driver

#70
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more unsettling than the fact that many companies have this attitude towards their employees, is the degree to which members of HN unquestioningly defend this practice whenever the subject comes up. As long as only Uber does this, there really isn't a problem. But it will be a problem if it happens everywhere. I am not saying that this is a black-and-white thing. There are certainly nuances here, and in a…

You raise some interesting points. As an employer, do I have a moral obligation to help an under performing employee through a bad period? Many, though not all, would say, "yes." Let me rephrase the question. Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No," though there may be an argument about the present value of what the empl…

Do I have a moral obligation to pay said employee more than the current value he is providing to me? Now, most economists would say, "No,"

I seriously doubt that. After having gotten to know some actual economists (you know, academics; not the ones who pretend to know about economics on TV) I have learned that most of them are actually quite different from the "hooray free markets all the way" stereotype.

In fact, I would bet that most of them will say that you do have a moral obligation, and many (perhaps most) will say that it also makes economic sense to help an under-performing employee through a bad period. Real economists don't emphasize the short term.

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