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Why Programming is Difficult

joearms.github.io

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Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#111

Post by igorgue »

benched wrote: post #40

I think programming is easy. When I sit down to code something, it feels deterministic, and everything falls into place. I attribute this to: 1) IQ 3 standard deviations above. If I hadn't been this way when I started, I probably wouldn't have started. 2) I've been practicing hard, 25 years. That's a lot of time to try a lot of ways to do a lot of things, and find what works. Here's what's difficult for me, and what…

You sound like a jerk man, I'm as smart as you (and many people here are way, waaaay smarter than you and me together).

It took you 25 years to get where you're right now, does that mean programming is easy? It's the total opposite. In most professions you're ready after 4 years of training, in contrast programming not really.

I don't know how old you are, definitely older than me, but I really hope you don't tell those things you just commented to "the people" you work with.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#112

Post by blindhippo »

eevilspock wrote: post #107
3rd3 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this attitude is why humanity is doomed. Smart people sit in private and we are governed by idiots.

Technical or mathematical smarts doesn't necessarily translate to wisdom, and as many of the comments herein show, perhaps hinders wisdom. Perhaps we are governed by idiots. Yes, I'm sure that if we were governed by people with "HN smarts" and worldview, I'm sure society would be so much better off. After all, look at all the great things Silicon Valley and startups are doing to make the world a better place!

"After all, look at all the great things Silicon Valley and startups are doing to make the world a better place!"

Hey, don't disparage javascript framework number 23182! It's going to disrupt the universe for the good of all man kind!

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#113

Post by lutusp »

dllthomas wrote: post #108
lutusp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't agree. Evidence trumps opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Criticism... > I've never used my IQ as justification for anything, granted, but I had no idea it wasn't considered a solid measurement. It isn't remotely a "solid measurement", in fact it's a field surrounded by justified controversy on multiple grounds. The two primary objections are that (a) the tests favor certain populat…

>> I don't agree. > Evidence trumps opinion. I understood the parent to be saying that they disagreed that "someone that smart would have known IQ is bogus", not that they disagreed that "IQ was bogus".

> I understood the parent to be saying that they disagreed that "someone that smart would have known IQ is bogus", not that they disagreed that "IQ was bogus".

Yes, and because of how the post was worded, we may never know. I suspect (and acted on the idea that) he was disagreeing about my claim about the veracity of IQ testing, but that's just a guess.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#114

Post by RollAHardSix »

killertypo wrote: post #60
benched wrote: post #40

I think programming is easy. When I sit down to code something, it feels deterministic, and everything falls into place. I attribute this to: 1) IQ 3 standard deviations above. If I hadn't been this way when I started, I probably wouldn't have started. 2) I've been practicing hard, 25 years. That's a lot of time to try a lot of ways to do a lot of things, and find what works. Here's what's difficult for me, and what…

> I think programming is easy. When I sit down to code something, it feels deterministic, and everything falls into place this is something i've always felt and was always confused by when I saw others coding. Nothing was ever "hard," coding just made sense to me. So logical, so easy to do, concepts may be difficult to grasp at first, but it never took long to grasp and commit it to memory.

I can actually agree with this also.

(Sometimes things fall apart in implementation but we won't go down THAT route)

Most of the time software is fairly 'easy', find the source problem, map out a solution, use your design patterns, and then implement it. I am NOT book-smart by any means (and 5 years Marine Corps vs College did not help that(though going back now while working in the industry seems to be helping to fix it somewhat), however I've always clicked with programming. Sure at times I lack experience that someone who has 10-15 years experience in a certain language might have, but 90% of the problems really only need 2-3 years experience to come up with workable solutions.

I consider myself lucky though, my first job was re-writing an entire code-base to OOP with only one Senior Dev (who was hired a month after me) for guidance. And he taught me everything you could learn, involved me fully in decisions and together (yes a full team of two lol!) stood up Agile Development practices.

I really think that a combination of variously-challenging levels of work combined with an excellent mentor, and being treated as a full-equal is the key to training software engineers to be amazing engineers and giving that 'click'. But I will also say, it takes a certain type of person, some of the people I've seen in school will never be amazing, they lack the flare of passion, but I do believe that the certain type of person needed, is more relevant in Software Development.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#115

Post by Iftheshoefits »

supersystem wrote: post #102
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming is difficult because people are profiting from the "difficultability" of it That's backwards. Not "anyone" can program computers. Anyone can try , but most will fail. Just like "anyone" can "do math" or "do chemistry" or "do anything", but most will fail. The reason programming is lucrative, whether as an employee or entrepeneur exploiting programmers' labor (or supplying their own technical labor), is…

I see programming mostly as janitorial work. Why? Because it's mostly complex rather than hard. Of course "real programmers" are upset with RoR jockeys when it turns out businesses pay for delivered value rather than technical complexity.

Janitorial work isn't "complex" in any way that approximates programming--even the programming that "RoR jockeys" do. If the two were on the same level of complexity, "RoR jockeys" wouldn't be paid as well as they are. And, yes "real programmers" earn more than "RoR jockeys," because what "real programmers" do is both more complex and harder. But I think calling them "RoR jockeys" or implying they aren't "real programmers" is both wrong and juvenile. Otherwise I don't think you've written anything that conflicts substantially with what I wrote.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#116

Post by yogo »

gaius wrote: post #101
yogo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there's professional experience and non-professional/hobbyist experience. In your interview you should probably clarify that. They're both different but I think there is value to the things teenager might have learned working on some toy project.

Sure, and I value that, it's how I got started myself. But the experience of working on your own projects only translates to a fraction of the work a professional programmer does. 10 years experience would put you at the level of a lead programmer, or an entry-level architect.

Fair enough. I just felt like that was probably something I was guilty of when younger. If you have no pro experience and you are asked that question then your most likely instinct is provide a number and base it on hobby projects. Later on you realize there are other ways to answer such a question :).

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#117

Post by joe_the_user »

yogo wrote: post #100
joe_the_user wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you start your post with "I have a high IQ so programming's easy for me", I indeed believe that working with other people might be a problem for you. But I would still add that I'm doubtful that someone can work on large projects and not have communicating and working with other people be an actual part of programming (rather than that "other problem", "people"). If your projects need you to produce code that ot…

Spot on. For the most part I think you can take anyone on HN to build 90% of the applications out there. After all, it mostly boils down CRUD (different levels), with the other 10% requiring specialized knowledge of algorithms and certain systems. All this to say that coding is the easy part. The more time-consuming part is figuring out exactly what the end users need, whether that involves communicating directly wit…

You mean 90% of the web applications out there.

The other situation where communication is important is once you have a large enough application that you have to start dealing with other people's code and design.

There is a lot of hellish bureaucracy in even the best of these situations but I think there is none-the-less some important learnings available there.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#118

Post by truthteller »

lutusp wrote: post #91
truthteller wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the mismeasure of man" is a garbage book by the noted fraud and liar steven jay gould. it certainly should not be used as any sort of reference on intelligence testing.

> "the mismeasure of man" is a garbage book by the noted fraud and liar steven jay gould. When you post like this, do you ever stop to think how you're making psychology and its supporters look? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man#Awards Quote: "The first edition of The Mismeasure of Man won the non-fiction award from the National Book Critics Circle; the Outstanding Book Award for 1983 from the Americ…

the opinions of ignorant journalists are not really relevant. it was strongly criticized by experts in the relevant area. do you realize how intellectually lazy you look when you form strong opinions on subjects without even doing basic research first?

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#119

Post by truthteller »

lutusp wrote: post #90
truthteller wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from your link: "The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance, such as school achievement, similarly to the way they predict future performance for Caucasians." so the consensus in psychometrics is that iq tests are not system…

> The American Psychological Association's report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that in the United States IQ tests as predictors of social achievement are not biased against African Americans since they predict future performance ... The flaw in the reasoning should be obvious to anyone but a psychologist -- the test outcome becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, rather than an unbiased predictor of future pe…

the point is that they predict future performance equally for different groups, not just that they predict performance. your language is alarmingly exaggerated and pompous for someone who lacks basic reading comprehension skills and is entirely ignorant about the subject of intelligence testing.

Re: Why Programming is Difficult

#120

Post by 3minus1 »

3rd3 wrote: post #77
bitwize wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paraphrasing Feynman: You do not understand "ordinary people." To you they are 'stupid fools' -- so you will not tolerate them or treat their foibles with tolerance or patience -- but will drive yourself wild (or they will drive you wild) trying to deal with them in an effective way. Find a way to do your programming with as little contact with non-technical people as possible, with one exception, fall madly in love!…

And this attitude is why humanity is doomed. Smart people sit in private and we are governed by idiots.

Nixon was a genius
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