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Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

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Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#31

Post by EthanHeilman »

buro9 wrote: post #21
finch_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then I suppose Google should have just given in to the Chinese government's demands for censorship, or the US government's demands for access to private data?

Yes. I don't agree with either of those things, but there is a point at which globalisation comes into conflict with sovereign nations. The status of a company is one that is granted to it by a sovereign country, and sovereign countries establish through their legal and government systems how companies can act within their borders. Once you're there... yes, Google should comply to any legal request. And in fact, they…

What gives the state's law making capacity the magical ability to trump morality and ethics?

There exist laws so hideous and offensive to human dignity, that they should never be obeyed.

EDITED: I am not talking about the google privacy case specifically, previous posts in this thread had widened the scope beyond this point.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#32

Post by chris_wot »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #31
buro9 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I don't agree with either of those things, but there is a point at which globalisation comes into conflict with sovereign nations. The status of a company is one that is granted to it by a sovereign country, and sovereign countries establish through their legal and government systems how companies can act within their borders. Once you're there... yes, Google should comply to any legal request. And in fact, they…

What gives the state's law making capacity the magical ability to trump morality and ethics? There exist laws so hideous and offensive to human dignity, that they should never be obeyed. EDITED: I am not talking about the google privacy case specifically, previous posts in this thread had widened the scope beyond this point.

Agreed. If you feel that you cannot obey those laws, you should cease doing business in that country.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#33

Post by ryguytilidie »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #31
buro9 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I don't agree with either of those things, but there is a point at which globalisation comes into conflict with sovereign nations. The status of a company is one that is granted to it by a sovereign country, and sovereign countries establish through their legal and government systems how companies can act within their borders. Once you're there... yes, Google should comply to any legal request. And in fact, they…

What gives the state's law making capacity the magical ability to trump morality and ethics? There exist laws so hideous and offensive to human dignity, that they should never be obeyed. EDITED: I am not talking about the google privacy case specifically, previous posts in this thread had widened the scope beyond this point.

Fair enough to make this argument, but I wouldn't call a fine for violating privacy laws as an example of "laws so hideous and offensive to human dignity, that they should never be obeyed." by any means...

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#34

Post by EthanHeilman »

chris_wot wrote: post #32
EthanHeilman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gives the state's law making capacity the magical ability to trump morality and ethics? There exist laws so hideous and offensive to human dignity, that they should never be obeyed. EDITED: I am not talking about the google privacy case specifically, previous posts in this thread had widened the scope beyond this point.

Agreed. If you feel that you cannot obey those laws, you should cease doing business in that country.

What if that is the sole country you do business in and you are legally forbidden from closing your business (as can happen to a business that produces essential war materials)?

The problem that is that companies are not above the law, but they are even less above ethics. The primary reason that we argue that companies should follow the law is ethics and when ethics and the law are in conflict ethics always trumps the law.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#35

Post by hatred »

chris_wot wrote: post #23
finch_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then I suppose Google should have just given in to the Chinese government's demands for censorship, or the US government's demands for access to private data?

No. They should stop trading in such countries if they don't like the laws.

It's a bigger problem then that. Laws are not exactly straight white strings which you know everything about when you set foot on some country to begin operations. If some country takes you to task on some ridiculous convoluted third world laws ( may be I am exaggerating here ) , a company has every right to present its views in court rather then just suck it up for the sake of abiding by the law. Also, once you have set up operation in a country it is very hard to move out since it risks putting your millions of users off who have got used to your product.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#36

Post by mildtrepidation »

chris_wot wrote: post #23
finch_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then I suppose Google should have just given in to the Chinese government's demands for censorship, or the US government's demands for access to private data?

No. They should stop trading in such countries if they don't like the laws.

Which is true -- just like the idealistic interpretations here of the reason laws and governments exist -- but neither are really based in reality.

Since "just stop doing business there" often isn't a realistic option for most businesses, big or small, you do what you can to work within the law while attempting to retain what seems to you a reasonable standard of ethics. That's a very gray position, but that's how the world is.

When politics and legislation are ideal and unchanging, then you can expect corporations to consistently comply with all laws in all places. Until then, it's unreasonable to make statements like this. It is, of course, your right to do so; just don't make the mistake of believing it reflects how business and government actually work.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#38

Post by finch_ »

buro9 wrote: post #21
finch_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then I suppose Google should have just given in to the Chinese government's demands for censorship, or the US government's demands for access to private data?

Yes. I don't agree with either of those things, but there is a point at which globalisation comes into conflict with sovereign nations. The status of a company is one that is granted to it by a sovereign country, and sovereign countries establish through their legal and government systems how companies can act within their borders. Once you're there... yes, Google should comply to any legal request. And in fact, they…

To be clear, I'm not saying that Google should break the law. Instead, I'm saying that it's clearly the case that there are some bad laws in the world, and that its perfectly reasonable for companies to engage in advocacy to have those laws changed, rather than just rolling over and accepting them, for example the way that American tech companies have been releasing reports on the requests for data that they receive from the government in order to raise awareness of the issue.

I'm not even saying this necessarily applies to this exact situation - maybe the laws in France that Google was in violation of are good laws, in which case hopefully Google loses its appeal.

It's just ridiculous to say that companies should always just do whatever government tells them to do without question.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#39

Post by nicholassmith »

finch_ wrote: post #14
chris_wot wrote: post #10

Well this isn't going to go well for Google. At least I sure hope it doesn't. When corporations trump nation-states, we're all screwed.

So then I suppose Google should have just given in to the Chinese government's demands for censorship, or the US government's demands for access to private data?

As far I remember they did self-censor for a while, then pulled services over to Hong Kong to get around the laws instead.

Re: Google refuses to pay French privacy fine in a battle of company versus country

#40

Post by p4bl0 »

jmnicolas wrote: post #4
p4bl0 wrote: post #2

Actually, the Conseil d'État just released its decision a few minutes ago: Google have to pay. See http://www.conseil-etat.fr/fr/communiques-de-presse/sanction... (in French).

Le Conseil d'État is a French institution whose decisions can be broken (sadly) by European courts. I think Google is not fighting for its reputation, but if they pay now they will open the door to more fines from over countries.

> Le Conseil d'État is a French institution whose decisions can be broken (sadly) by European courts.

It's not as simple as that. From what I have understood, there is a precise hierarchy of courts and the Conseil d'État is at the top of the administrative courts hierarchy. The only way to appeal their decision is to go one step higher which would be the European Court of Human Rights, and I don't see how Google could find a valid reason to get there with this issue.

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