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Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

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Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#121

Post by boyter »

ttdi wrote: post #114
boyter wrote: post #5

The LGBT Russia thing is totally blown out of proportion. http://www.scribd.com/doc/203382931/Russian-Lgbt-Law-White-P... Before you decide to down-vote me into oblivion and accuse me of hating minority groups please read the white paper linked above. Note I am not affiliated with the person who wrote it or scribd. I just want people to see both sides of the argument. EDIT - And what a surprise down-voted. Seriously…

I'm sorry, this paper is bizarre and somewhat incoherent. magicalist goes into some of the problems with it, but the even larger problem that I see is that it seems to completely ignore the larger climate of intimidation and erasure by public officials, and look at "are specific people being harmed by this specific law", and I'm disinclined to trust its analysis even on that. It's written by somebody who claims to be…

As I wrote elsewhere, ignore the conclusions. The facts presented are what I am interested in.

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#122

Post by [deleted] »

boyter wrote: post #5

The LGBT Russia thing is totally blown out of proportion. http://www.scribd.com/doc/203382931/Russian-Lgbt-Law-White-P... Before you decide to down-vote me into oblivion and accuse me of hating minority groups please read the white paper linked above. Note I am not affiliated with the person who wrote it or scribd. I just want people to see both sides of the argument. EDIT - And what a surprise down-voted. Seriously…

[deleted]

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#123

Post by Lazare »

osipov wrote: post #112
shalmanese wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All state based sodomy laws were invalidated by Lawrence vs Texas in 2003 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas ). The only reason the laws are still on the books is because they've been knowingly superceded.

Check out the Supremacy Clause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause "The supremacy of federal law over state law only applies if Congress is acting in pursuance of its constitutionally authorized powers." Congress does not have an authority to govern sexual conduct. Just because enforcement of sodomy laws has been unpopular long before 2003, doesn't mean they don't exist.

...wow. You really don't understand how the US legal system works, do you?

Hint: The Supremacy Clause limits federal law; the product of the legislative branch. Lawrence v. Texas is court decision; the product of the judicial branch. That's like saying the second amendment requires the legalisation of marijuana because pot is a type of rifle. ><

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#124

Post by cromwellian »

barking wrote: post #106
cromwellian wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to reclaim the name for positive associations. Many people don't even know how Oliver Cromwell was, I've even encountered British people who didn't know the history. Anyway, there's actor James Cromwell. We need to band together and overcome the negative association with the good ole' Lord Protector. (My grandfather used to tell me that he traced our ancestry and supposedly we are closely/directly descende…

He was held responsible for a massacre 5 miles from where I was born. I did a school project on it and stood in a stone tower room where local women and children had gone for refuge but were discovered and slaughtered. Even closer to home was a spot where as Cromwell's army passed a man stood looking at them. His behaviour was viewed as impudent and he was summarily hanged. As a small kid he was the devil incarnate t…

His statue is still in front of the House of Commons though, I think. I found that sort of strange, like having a statue of Hitler in front of the Reichstag or other government buildings.

The story I was told growing up that he was hated so much when he died, they dug up his body and desecrated it.

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#125

Post by mkr-hn »

osipov wrote: post #115
mkr-hn wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the executive summary. It's great that Russia is making legal progress, and I mean that, but that doesn't change the situation on the ground where people are being beaten and arrested.

The paper also talks about statistics on how often gay people are beaten in Russia. United States is far worse in this respect. Further United States has a greater incarceration rate for gays than Russia.

What's your point?

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#126

Post by erichocean »

mkr-hn wrote: post #125
osipov wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper also talks about statistics on how often gay people are beaten in Russia. United States is far worse in this respect. Further United States has a greater incarceration rate for gays than Russia.

What's your point?

That if you care about what's on paper, yeah, Russia is worse than the US.

But if you care about facts on the ground—what people do, not what they say—then the US is worse than Russia.

I have no idea about any of the facts, but that's what I took to be what he was saying.

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#127

Post by subsection1h »

boyter wrote: post #5

The LGBT Russia thing is totally blown out of proportion. http://www.scribd.com/doc/203382931/Russian-Lgbt-Law-White-P... Before you decide to down-vote me into oblivion and accuse me of hating minority groups please read the white paper linked above. Note I am not affiliated with the person who wrote it or scribd. I just want people to see both sides of the argument. EDIT - And what a surprise down-voted. Seriously…

> It is well researched, well written and provides citations and sources to its conclusions.

First, this white paper is horribly written in comparison to a real research paper or academic report. It seems to be written for the audience of a site such as Infowars, which, not surprisingly, is one of the main sites that have promoted this white paper.[1]

Second, I was mostly interested in the author's comparison of the rates of hate crimes committed against LGBT people in Russia and the US. Not surprisingly, the author simply compares rates reported by the SOVA Center and the FBI. Anyone who has studied criminology for five minutes knows that you can't adequately compare the levels of crime in different areas this way. The American Society of Criminology, the largest criminological association in the world, has stated this numerous times in their publications, including their policy statements[2] (which strongly recommend against using Unified Crime Reports (UCRs) to compare levels of crime in different cities that are located IN THE SAME COUNTRY).

> It is also written by a lawyer who identifies themselves as part of the LGBT community.

Yes, and Bjørn Lomborg is a lifelong environmentalist, which I also learned at Infowars.

The only mention of Brian M. Heiss, the author of the white paper, anywhere on the Internet[3][4] is this white paper. Please direct me to this author, which should be easy since he's apparently your favorite source regarding this issue. I would never cite a source whose existence I couldn't prove.

> Letting the media tell you what to think

Are Amnesty International[5] and Human Rights Watch[6] "the media"?

[1] http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-about-russias-anti-gay-law...

[2] http://www.asc41.com/policies/policyPositions.html

[3] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brian+M+Heiss%22

[4] https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brian+Heiss%22+%22lawyer%...

[5] http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-rus...

[6] http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/03/russia-sochi-games-highli...

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#128

Post by subsection1h »

osipov wrote: post #115
mkr-hn wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the executive summary. It's great that Russia is making legal progress, and I mean that, but that doesn't change the situation on the ground where people are being beaten and arrested.

The paper also talks about statistics on how often gay people are beaten in Russia. United States is far worse in this respect. Further United States has a greater incarceration rate for gays than Russia.

See my reply to boyter. The white paper does not adequately show that fewer "gay people are beaten in Russia".

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#129

Post by Lazare »

osipov wrote: post #108
aray wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utah, while prohibiting gay marriage, nevertheless still let gay people meet (gatherings), distribute information, and speak publicly about the topic.

Russia allows these things too except for the part of getting minors involved. EDIT: The Wikipedia article is full of hedging on this topic, e.g. - "According to _some commentators_..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Bans_on_.... - "Under the statute it is _effectively illegal_", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#National_... Since when did journalists become legal scholars? Shoul…

You're getting a lot of downvotes, but I see most people aren't bothering to explain your error to you. Let me help:

We're concerned with the amount of oppression actually occurring in Russia, and with the actual life of actual gay men and women in Russia. Your comments and links focus on the laws, but it is very possible to pass a wonderful sounding law and then ignore it in practice. In fact, Russia's predecessor, the Soviet Union, was famous for doing just this. Their constitution guaranteed a wide range of freedoms which were never actually enjoyed by the subjects of the Soviet empire.

If we want to evaluate the drafting of a law, we would of course turn to a legal scholar; their views on phrasing are critical. But if you want to know about life on the street, you turn to a journalist.

You stress the word "effectively" in the phrase "effectively illegal", as if this undermines the importance. It does nothing of the kind, because we want to know if you can hold an actual gay pride parade in Moscow (which you cannot), not whether any given law, if read and applied fairly, would ban gay pride parades (which it arguably does not).

And I see this same mistake (trying to analyse the laws rather than their application) repeatedly in your comments and in the sources you cite. You're effectively arguing that it doesn't matter if a law is being used to repress and hurt people, if you can find someone arguing that the law shouldn't be used this way. As if this magically makes the actual harm to actual people go away. But this is nonsense.

At the end of the day, their are gay pride parades in, eg, Utah, but not in, eg, Moscow. And everything you've said and linked to does not address this core point, that homosexuals are being brutally repressed in Russia, and not in the US.

Re: Google shows support for LGBT Olympians

#130

Post by [deleted] »

mkr-hn wrote: post #98
boyter wrote: post #5

The LGBT Russia thing is totally blown out of proportion. http://www.scribd.com/doc/203382931/Russian-Lgbt-Law-White-P... Before you decide to down-vote me into oblivion and accuse me of hating minority groups please read the white paper linked above. Note I am not affiliated with the person who wrote it or scribd. I just want people to see both sides of the argument. EDIT - And what a surprise down-voted. Seriously…

I read the executive summary. It's great that Russia is making legal progress, and I mean that, but that doesn't change the situation on the ground where people are being beaten and arrested.

[deleted]
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