Earlier quoted context omitted.
Will there still be humans in 300,000,000 million years?
300 trillion? Unlikely.
The Ocean is Broken (2013)
231–240 of 246 posts
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about the materials used in the solar panels, in addition to the process used to make them.
Noting that parent was referring to net primary productivity (on which, Jeffrey Dukes, "Burning Buried Sunshine", is very strongly recommended: http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange... ), the sustainability of various renewable energy technologies is an open question. But here's the dilemma as I see it: • Modern technological civilization is predicated on abundant cheap (high EROEI) energy sour…
I have lived for many years within the energy budget provided by photovoltaics and the wind. It is possible to live well under such circumstances, and to be as technological as a city dweller, but first you have to eliminate the waste.
Take, for example, your houses and apartment buildings. They are so poorly constructed that the planet would be considerably better off, despite the waste, if we tore down every single last one of them and rebuilt them for longevity and energy efficiency.
A few buildings (maybe three in a city of 5 million people) are constructed well. They use (at the moment) ICF techniques and they are so well insulated that, even in the coldest days of January, the heating system can fail completely for over three days BEFORE ANYONE NOTICES that it is broken. They can use geothermal heating exclusively both winter and summer and provide complete comfort for 10% of the normal cost.
But you do not build your stuctures like this because energy efficiency is not a priority; money is the priority. The scumbag builders build shit buildings to maximize their profits; the scumbag realtors sell units to the ignorant masses for a fortune, and nothing changes.
What is wrong with humanity is that we are just too fucking stupid and far too much in love with ourselves to do the reasonable thing. We are crazy for money and it has become the arbiter of all success. Instead of killing off 90% of the species, we could begin by simply eliminating the 90% of our activity that is wilfully wasted and continue to live well, so long as the reduction in resource usage was not simply an excuse to increase our already ridiculous numbers.
So that is my alternative: stop being monsters. Otherwise I cast my vote for us all to die of a virus incubated in the backstreets of Shenzhen, and good riddance.
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm fairly left and I'm not opposed to privatization at all. But... The highest bidder can police the fish themselves. If they fail to police the fish, their ownership is revoked and the rights are re-auctioned. Nice in theory, but in practice the highest bidder often ends up as such a strong political lobby that it prevails on government to do the policing, fights tooth-and-nail against quotas, and rights are almost…
You're totally correct that private interests can and do influence the political process! One of the wonderful side effects of fishery privatization is the creation of a new lobby which does battle against the existing fish lobbies. See, the ultimate goal is to get less fish pulled from the ocean - at least in the short term until fish populations recover. So the fish lobbies are going to go absolutely insane! Imagin…
Seems like you skipped a step there. It works with quite varying degrees of success, not unlike regulation.
Edit2: We are completely fine with the government protecting private farms on land. What's wrong, philosophically, with government protection of private fisheries in the ocean?
Nothing, except not all of them are any given government's to give away (because you can fish in international waters), and because the task and costs involved are significantly different.
I'm not opposed to your idea, but you're hand-waving it as a panacea without thinking about the real issues. People have been doing this since the 1970s but we've still got a lot of problems, so it's clearly not a magic bullet. See for example http://cironline.org/reports/system-turns-us-fishing-rights-... (and no, I don't especially care about the corporations v. cottage industry frame, there's just some good summary information in the article).
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're totally correct that private interests can and do influence the political process! One of the wonderful side effects of fishery privatization is the creation of a new lobby which does battle against the existing fish lobbies. See, the ultimate goal is to get less fish pulled from the ocean - at least in the short term until fish populations recover. So the fish lobbies are going to go absolutely insane! Imagin…
We already know that privatization of food sources works in practice. Seems like you skipped a step there. It works with quite varying degrees of success, not unlike regulation. Edit2: We are completely fine with the government protecting private farms on land. What's wrong, philosophically, with government protection of private fisheries in the ocean? Nothing, except not all of them are any given government's to giv…
2) Due to the international nature of fisheries, they would have to be sold by the UN or another ad hoc international body. (The current regional-international fishery management orgs could probably work)
3) Catch shares are not related to fishery privatization. Catch shares are simply the most efficient method of carrying out traditional regulatory limits. The goal of fishery privatization is to turn around the fish population collapse, not sustain the collapse (which is what traditional regulation does).
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uranium ... These numbers are way too pessimistic Then cite your sources. The Wikipedia article I linked cites this MIT study for ~100 years supply at present rates of consumption: http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/pdf/nuclearpower-update2009.... I think this is way too pessimistic. For liquid fuels I'd strongly suggest you check recent trends: BP's annual statistical review, CapEx spends and yields from Shell, BP, and…
this MIT study for ~100 years supply at present rates of consumption P. 12 of that study says "most commentators conclude that a half century of unimpeded growth is possible", and the study appears to agree with that assessment. "Unimpeded growth" means a large increase in consumption rate over the present. Also, that assessment is based on a once-through fuel cycle and mining as the only uranium source. Over a half…
Um. No. First, the term isn't defined or clarified, so you're simply applying an interpretation convenient to you. On page 3 you'll find growth assumptions clearly stated:
[T]he study explicitly assessed the challenges of a scenario in which nuclear power capacity expands from approximately 100 GWe in the United States in 2000 to 300 GWe at mid-century (from 340 to 1000 GWe globally), thereby enabling an increase in nuclear power's approximately 20% share of U.S. electricity generation to about 30% (from 16% to 20% globally).
That is the growth which can occur unimpeded for up to 50 years.
You've also conveniently failed acknowledge the first half of that sentence, given in full here with the pargraph it occurs in:
Table 2 shows Red Book identified resources, undiscovered resources, and the number of reactor years of fuel provided by those resources. Based on the total projected Red Book resources recoverable at a cost less than $130/kg (2006$) of about 13 million metric tons (hence about an 80 year supply for 800 reactors), most commentators conclude that a half century of unimpeded growth is possible, especially since resources costing several hundred dollars per kilogram (not estimated in the Red Book) would also be economically usable.
We're still left with 80 years supply for 800 1 GWe reactors. Better than the near-term critical situation for liquid fuels, but hardly copiously abundant.
On Algae:
All of which are issues that are going to be solved
Yeah. So, Boeing's just released "the biggest breakthrough that there is out there" in biofuels, those are its director of sustainable aviation fuels, Darrin Morgan's words, not mine. Halophyte (pickleweed) farming integrated with aquaculture for aviation fuel production at ~75 gallons/acre-year. Aviation fuel is around 5% of total US oil consumption (15,998 million gallons in 2013, RITA), roughly 1 million of the 20 million barrels of oil consumed daily in the US.
Supplying just 5% of US oil consumption from pickleweed would require 21.3 million acres under cultivation. That's about 330,000 mile^2, or a region 577 miles on a side. You could start in Shreveport, LA, and drive all the way around Oklahoma and Kansas without ever entering them. Boeing's article mentions having "thousands and thousands of hectares* under cultivation. How about millions and millions?
http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1wo2hl/boeings_...
Algae are, typically, about 10x more productive than plants, but present their own host of challenges (infrastructure and capital requirements, disease, water, fertilizer, waste removal, plumbing issues). Since the above calculations are for a 5% replacement of petroleum, you could take the same acreage and say instead you're getting 50% of present oil usage. Realize that those 21.3 million acres _now all have to be constructed_ with pumps, drainage, etc. And somehow supplied with water. And placed somewhere that they don't interfere with existing food, habitation, and essential ecosystems.
Good luck with that.
Human ingenuity
Can you demonstrate a single case in which human ingenuity has created a new entropic gradient to exploit, rather than found an existing one? What existing gradients can you point to that we can tap? We've covered nuclear and biofuels here. I see solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, and tide/wave left.
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#236Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's true, also I was too harsh.
Fortunately, you discredited your own sentiment with your harshness and poor sentence construction. In addition, you presented a false argument, implying that somebody with my concerns would see murder as the only answer, perhaps revealing more about your own psyche than you'd like.
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think resale value generally refers to its price.
I wanted to make explicit the distinction between "value" which can denote a range of concepts, and "price" which specifically refers to a sum of money. Since value itself is at question here. Though yes, "market value" generally equates to "market price". And the pedants will note that "price" needn't be strictly limited to monetary assessments, though that's how I'm using the term here.
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
We already know that privatization of food sources works in practice. Seems like you skipped a step there. It works with quite varying degrees of success, not unlike regulation. Edit2: We are completely fine with the government protecting private farms on land. What's wrong, philosophically, with government protection of private fisheries in the ocean? Nothing, except not all of them are any given government's to giv…
1) Privatization of food sources is by far the most successful form of food production. All alternatives have provided inferior results, some catastrophically so (Cambodia under Khmer Rouge, etc. Ironically, the current international fishery management regime is not entirely unlike the collective farm practices of the Khmer Rouge!). 2) Due to the international nature of fisheries, they would have to be sold by the UN…
Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
this MIT study for ~100 years supply at present rates of consumption P. 12 of that study says "most commentators conclude that a half century of unimpeded growth is possible", and the study appears to agree with that assessment. "Unimpeded growth" means a large increase in consumption rate over the present. Also, that assessment is based on a once-through fuel cycle and mining as the only uranium source. Over a half…
P. 12 of that study says "most commentators conclude that a half century of unimpeded growth is possible", and the study appears to agree with that assessment. "Unimpeded growth" means a large increase in consumption rate over the present. Um. No. First, the term isn't defined or clarified, so you're simply applying an interpretation convenient to you. On page 3 you'll find growth assumptions clearly stated: [T]he st…
I'm not sure those two quotes are talking about the same thing. I notice that different numbers are quoted in different statements in the document; for example, on p. 12 there is this statement:
This reinforces the observation in the 2003 MIT study that “We believe that the world-wide supply of uranium ore is sufficient to fuel the deployment of 1000 reactors over the next half century.”
Which is different from the "80 years for 800 reactors" statement.
But more importantly, you're ignoring additional information that's given in the same sentence we've been quoting and the one immediately following it. You expanded the quote to give the first half of the sentence, but you conveniently ignored the last part of the sentence, which I'll repeat: especially since resources costing several hundred dollars per kilogram (not estimated in the Red Book) would also be economically usable. I.e., the "80 years for 800 reactors" figure (and by implication the "1000 reactors over the next half century" figure) does not include all estimated resources. The very next sentence is:
Using a probabilistic resources versus cost model to extend Red Book data, we estimate an order of magnitude larger resources at a tolerable doubling of prices.
I.e., at twice the current uranium price (which, as I noted before, would mean only a small increase in the price of nuclear electricity to the end user, unlike fossil fuels where fuel cost is a major factor in end user price), we have 10 times as much available, meaning 80 years for 8000 reactors, or 10,000 reactors over the next half century. That's a big difference. And since uranium prices will certainly go up if it becomes scarcer, there will be natural economic forces driving people to tap the 10 times as much uranium that's available at higher prices. So you are conveniently failing to acknowledge information that's in the document you linked to. (And that's still leaving out breeders, which as I noted before, were left out of the MIT study for economic reasons, not technical reasons, and as uranium prices go up the economics change.)
those 21.3 million acres
Or about 23 percent of the area currently under cultivation in the U.S. (922 million acres according to Wikipedia). But we're talking about 25 to 50 years, not right now. There's no reason why algae acres have to displace current farm acres on that time scale. That 21.3 million acres is about 9 percent of the land area of the U.S, which is significant but doable. Or, if we wanted to get creative, we could put the algae farms on platforms offshore and out of the way (and with easy access to fresh water using desalinization rigs--or even using salt-water tolerant algae).
Good luck with that.
In the next 25 to 50 years, the items you list are easily doable. That's not to say they'll actually be done; but once again, the main obstacles I see are political, not technical. I notice you haven't commented on that at all.
Can you demonstrate a single case in which human ingenuity has created a new entropic gradient to exploit, rather than found an existing one?
Of course not; that would violate the second law of thermodynamics.
What existing gradients can you point to that we can tap?
Here on Earth, for the near future, you've covered all the significant ones I'm aware of (assuming solar includes solar thermal as well as photovoltaic; I haven't seen a lot lately on solar thermal, but it seems like an obvious alternative worth pursuing).