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Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

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Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#141

Post by spinlock »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #99
waps wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The netflix data itself points to a gradual lowering of bandwidth to their service. Now here's 2 scenarios : 1) Verizon decided to enter some router configurations that affect the packet forwarding to Netflix (well, most likely FROM netflix, as the internet is not actually symmetrical). What we should see as a result of this is a sudden change in bandwidth. 2) The load on the interfaces in between is changing, either…

> The basic problem is that a linear increase in bandwidth for the customer results in an exponential increase in costs for the ISP > N * (N - 1) =~ N^2 (assuming full duplex links, which would be generally correct for the internet) 1) N^2 is not exponential, it's polynomial. 2) Expanding capacity isn't even N^2, it's just linear. If you double each residential customer's bandwidth, you "only" have to double the capa…

Thank you. I'm glad to see that hn still knows what exponential growth is. It really bugs me when people abuse the term.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#142

Post by spinlock »

This is why I think streaming is a broken model: it spikes usage at the same time every day. BitTorrent (or just off-line downloading) is so much better because you can amortize the download over the whole day and take advantage of off-peak bandwidth. We just need to convince copyright holders that its in their best interest to deliver a superior product.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#143

Post by lucb1e »

rhino369 wrote: post #101
nathan_long wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent test. If a VPN makes something faster, despite the fact that it adds overhead to the process , that seems like proof that it's being throttled.

It's not being throttled. There is a peering dispute between netflix's CDNs and the ISPs. Netflix's CDN's don't want to pay for delivery to the ISP. Normally CDNs peer with each other for free if the balance in each direction is equal. The problem is that any CDN that delivers netflix is hugely unequal since it's a huge one way stream. The ISPs could just eat the cost, and let it be delivered for free. Or Netflix's C…

Umm wait, isn't such a dispute exactly what we call net-neutrality? Consumers pay ISPs for internet access, and now ISPs also want money from websites that provide a service to the consumers. But filtering those websites until they pay the ISP to be let through is the opposite of net neutrality. If what you're saying is true and ISPs are asking Netflix (or subsidiaries) to pay them to be let through unthrottled, then this is indeed the net neutrality problem as the OP reports.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#144

Post by talmand »

nhangen wrote: post #46
zaraflan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comcast/Verizon/AT&T/et al already have terrible reputations. They also have dominant local monopolies and the legislative power to defend them.

I disagree. Here in Florida, Verizon FIOS has an excellent reputation and the product is far superior to the other choices we have. It's also the first place I've lived where I have choice (Brighthouse being the other player). Time Warner and Comcast are definitely among the worst though, and I suspect that if the OP is correct, it won't be long until Verizon joins them.

I too have Verizon FIOS and have no issues to speak of, other than the cost. But I don't assume that everyone else has had similar experiences. Typically it works out that areas with choices tend to get better service while the experience degrades as customers have fewer choices.

Personally, I wish they'd quit trying to convince me to increase my bill by a significant amount by including TV, of which I've made it quite clear I do not want.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#145

Post by lucb1e »

650REDHAIR wrote: post #96
jstalin wrote: post #58

I have experienced exactly this on Comcast. Suddenly, about two months ago, Netflix and Hulu became terrible to watch. I thought maybe it was my cable modem, so I upgraded it and still no luck. So I signed up for a VPN service and tested watching Netflix and Hulu both on the VPN and off. Sure enough, when on the VPN, I get the highest quality picture. When I disconnected the VPN, Netflix dropped down to about 500kbps…

I had this exact same problem with Sonic.net in SF. It was miserable. Each time I called they would tell me everything was fine and that it wasn't on their end- ignoring all proof. On the verizon topic, soon after they got rid of the unlimited data tier my speeds would drop significantly after I reached 200-250MB of data transfer, but when I cycled the power and updated the roaming the speed would go back to normal u…

Are you sure you don't mean GB instead of MB? Because 200MB is like one youtube video with some decent quality.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#146

Post by 650REDHAIR »

lucb1e wrote: post #145
650REDHAIR wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this exact same problem with Sonic.net in SF. It was miserable. Each time I called they would tell me everything was fine and that it wasn't on their end- ignoring all proof. On the verizon topic, soon after they got rid of the unlimited data tier my speeds would drop significantly after I reached 200-250MB of data transfer, but when I cycled the power and updated the roaming the speed would go back to normal u…

Are you sure you don't mean GB instead of MB? Because 200MB is like one youtube video with some decent quality.

Oh definitely MB. It was miserable having to reset the phone every few minutes.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#147

Post by padseeker »

brianmcdonough wrote: post #133
padseeker wrote: post #55

How do we, IT savvy people capable of monitoring, testing and verifying this stuff, use our collective skills to monitor each ISP and communicate who is doing the best/worst job? As long as there is at least one ISP provider who is not throttling traffic, we should reward that ISP that does not discriminate on web traffic, and punish the ones that do. You might have to show some differences across different regions a…

I want to express my gratitude for your thoughtful and more effective approach. The aha! nature of this article and the sensationalistic title lead me to believe that it's a knee jerk reaction.

thanks - the concern is legit, it might be throttled like the article said. OR the guy on the phone is inept and has no idea what he is talking about. Either way the threat is real possibility but whether it is actually happening is hard to verify.

Lack of competition though is a hard barrier to climb. If there are only say 2 ISPs in your area it seems like you are pretty much SOL. And that is where government intervention needs to happen.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#148

Post by lrem »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #99
waps wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The netflix data itself points to a gradual lowering of bandwidth to their service. Now here's 2 scenarios : 1) Verizon decided to enter some router configurations that affect the packet forwarding to Netflix (well, most likely FROM netflix, as the internet is not actually symmetrical). What we should see as a result of this is a sudden change in bandwidth. 2) The load on the interfaces in between is changing, either…

> The basic problem is that a linear increase in bandwidth for the customer results in an exponential increase in costs for the ISP > N * (N - 1) =~ N^2 (assuming full duplex links, which would be generally correct for the internet) 1) N^2 is not exponential, it's polynomial. 2) Expanding capacity isn't even N^2, it's just linear. If you double each residential customer's bandwidth, you "only" have to double the capa…

The thing is, it's not even close to doubling. I recently exchanged my 30Mbps ADSL to a 100Mbps fiber. In practice this means a jump from 0.8Mbps (yay long copper links!) to 50Mbps, which is most probably limited by the core. Thus, for vast residential areas (this is near the center of a 80k people town in a metro are of about a million), we are talking about multiplying the last mile by a factor of roughly 100x.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#149

Post by driverdan »

jstalin wrote: post #67
nathan_long wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent test. If a VPN makes something faster, despite the fact that it adds overhead to the process , that seems like proof that it's being throttled.

Oh, and the even more galling part... when watching Hulu on regular Comcast (without the VPN), the shows average around 500-900kbps. When it flips over to displaying the commercials, it jumps to 8Mbps or more!

The ads are probably served from a different service / CDN / network.

Re: Verizon Using Recent Net Neutrality Victory to Wage War Against Netflix?

#150

Post by drharris »

rhino369 wrote: post #101
nathan_long wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An excellent test. If a VPN makes something faster, despite the fact that it adds overhead to the process , that seems like proof that it's being throttled.

It's not being throttled. There is a peering dispute between netflix's CDNs and the ISPs. Netflix's CDN's don't want to pay for delivery to the ISP. Normally CDNs peer with each other for free if the balance in each direction is equal. The problem is that any CDN that delivers netflix is hugely unequal since it's a huge one way stream. The ISPs could just eat the cost, and let it be delivered for free. Or Netflix's C…

Um, no. I (the consumer) pay for my bandwidth. End of story. Anything else is a violation of the pipes that run the internet.
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