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We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

nytimes.com

141–150 of 167 posts

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#141
post #73

When I worked with radiologists (at a PACS vendor, mainly selling to the military and the federal prisons), the radiologists and staff were exercising due care about minimizing radiation exposure from CTs. Personally, I don't care about regular x-rays, particularly digital ones, for any reasonable medical use. I get one every year or two as part of a checkup. CT and C-arm fluoroscopy scare me, as an educated person w…

Apparently loads of dentists lost fingers and hands to cancer and bone degeneration before they figured out not to hold the x-ray film themselves. Now they have the patient hold it. It just drives home that the stuff is not harmless.

Let’s analyze the worst case scenario: 50 weeks/year * 5 days/week * 8 hours/day * 2 patients/hour = 4000 patients/year

So your finger would get 4000 “dental” x-ay of ~5uSv (u=micro), that is 20mSv. For comparison, the radiation worker yearly dose limit is 50mSv, but the 50mSv are distributed to all the body, and you get the 20mSv in your finger. Doesn’t sound good.

The problem is the repetition. Taking 4000 dental x-rays in a year is not a good idea. (I’m not sure if someone proved that it’s dangerous, but don’t try this just in case.) This is also the reason why x-rays technicians hide behind a shield while taking the x-ray.

* Nobody claims that x-rays are not dangerous. The claim is that the risk is minimal under reasonable use and in some circumstance (for example an accident) the benefits are much bigger than the risks.

* And the Linear No-Threshold model is mostly an upper bound, the risk of small radiation dose is perhaps smaller than what is extrapolated from big radiation doses.

For example, suppose that 4000000 patients take one dental x-ray and 1000 dentist take 4000 dental x-rays each one. In which group will be bigger the increase of the cancer total number? The Linear No-Threshold model says that the expected number should be equal. But perhaps it’s smaller in the patients group, because the body perhaps can deal better with a low number of problems from radiation.

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#142
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is terrible and you've done a good job of explaining why. But there are two ways to look at this: 1. From an individual's perspective 2. From society's perspective Let's make up some numbers for illustration. If getting a CT scan gives someone 0.01% chance of getting cancer, the risk to any individual is negligible. But to society, that means 100 extra cases of cancer.

100 extra cases of cancer out of how many already...? Yes, it's negligible either way.

Yes, it's negligible either way

But doctors have that pesky "do no harm" credo that makes them consider whether the benefit of CT scans is worth the harm of 100 people getting cancer that wouldn't have otherwise gotten it.

It is proper for society to examine this without dismissing 100 people getting cancer as "negligible".

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "in the elevator at work there is a sign that says so" is hardly evidence for anything. People use cellphones in elevators ALL the time, ALL around the world. Especially when continuing a conversation they had as they walked in the building, and for as long as the signal stays.

The evidence was in the link of my post: because of the Faraday cage/screening, part of the radio waves that the cellphone is emitting are reflected back into the elevator; the resulting strength of this fields exceeds the norms by an order of magnitude. this is considered to be within harmful range. The parent poster mentions the same effect in the context of aeroplanes.

The elevator/order-of-magnitude thing is an urban legend.

You'll only find it mentioned in fringe non-scientific sites.

Case in point, your source, microwavenews. This is for the kind of people who believe in chemtrails and such.

I mean, even if you don't know about the site, isn't it obvious from the BS way of writing that you're reading something designed to sell stuff to kooks? "According to some new calculations", "if you believe the research by", obscure "EMF" conferences in China (with dead webpages) and what have you.

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#144
post #2

I have no doubt that patients are getting exposed to more radiation via imaging than they need to. However, every decision in medicine is (or should be) a risk-vs-benefit analysis. Cancer is not the only thing you can die from. If you suffer a head injury and end up in the ER and get a CT scan, you may increase your long-term risk of cancer, but you are also drastically reducing the risk of dying from a brain hemorrh…

Unfortunately, there is another external factor playing into the risk/benefit analysis that I haven't seen mentioned hear yet - the threat of legal action. With such low barriers to filing a malpractice lawsuit and such high payouts for "victims" and devastating effects for doctors, CT scans are often ordered for the sole purpose of mitigating legal risks.

For example - someone comes into the ER with simply a headache. On its own this should not warrant a CT scan. But if a doctor does not order one, and that patient leaves and eventually comes back with a brain tumor (extremely small odds, but not zero), then the following malpractice suit would almost certainly result in a plaintiff victory and the end of a doctor's career.

Malpractice is a real thing and real victims deserve their due. But lawyer attack ads and no limits on "pain and suffering" payouts (often multi-millions) I believe are a critical part of the difficult healthcare situation in America that continues to go unaddressed.

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence was in the link of my post: because of the Faraday cage/screening, part of the radio waves that the cellphone is emitting are reflected back into the elevator; the resulting strength of this fields exceeds the norms by an order of magnitude. this is considered to be within harmful range. The parent poster mentions the same effect in the context of aeroplanes.

The elevator/order-of-magnitude thing is an urban legend. You'll only find it mentioned in fringe non-scientific sites. Case in point, your source, microwavenews. This is for the kind of people who believe in chemtrails and such. I mean, even if you don't know about the site, isn't it obvious from the BS way of writing that you're reading something designed to sell stuff to kooks? "According to some new calculations"…

[deleted]

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#146
post #74

CT Scan doses vary wildly depending on the type of X-ray (chest, head, limb, etc.), the size of the person, and a lot of other things. The bigger the cross-section of the thing you put in a scanner, the greater the exposure. CT machines themselves also vary considerably. Newer machines are often more sensitive and employ better imaging software, so they can do their job while delivering a much smaller dose. Anyone wh…

While your comment as a whole is thoughtful and well written, I'm surprised to hear you say, "Medical imaging is not done very often..." Medical imaging is commonly overused, and its overuse is recognized as being one of the leading causes of certain types of cancer. For example, the original story explains... "In a 2011 report sponsored by Susan G. Komen, the Institute of Medicine concluded that radiation from medic…

Thoughtful and well-written can often mask being wrong.

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#147
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about medicine and radiation, but is intensity a factor? Could getting x amount of radiation in 60 seconds be a bigger danger than the same amount of radiation spread out over days or months?

I'm not a doctor, but the way I understand it cumulative exposure is what really matters. Ionizing radiation, such as X-Rays, tends to pass through matter with less interaction than lower energy EMR, such as light. Obviously, there is some interaction or it wouldn't be good for imaging! When ionizing radiation is absorbed it (as the name suggests) ionizes an atom by knocking an electron free. That ion will then proba…

Generally, the unit in which exposure to ionizing radiation is being measured is "Gray" (Gy) which is absorbed energy (Measured in Joules, equal to one Watt-Second) per kg of absorbing material. That's called the "Dose". If you account for the amount of damage that this Dose can do to humans, you'll call this weighted Dose "Sievert" (Sv). Generally the weighting is not that important for X-Rays or gamma-radiation (the "normal radioactivity" people are concerned about), but will be important when dealing with neutrons.

The Wikipedia article on Sievert has a few examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert#Dose_examples

If a person is subjected to 5-10 Sv instantaneously, so many cells will be damaged that this person will die, not of cancer but of multiple organs ceasing to function properly over the course of a few days.

But, as you already have written, that's about 2000 years of background radiation (3mSv/year) in a very short time (documented accidents: probably few or less than one second). -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

There's data from survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, and this data corresponds to exposure to about 50mSv to 2Sv. There are also other studies, including people living in areas with hither (or lower) natural radiation levels, working in former Soviet-Union closed-off nuclera-research areas, and so on... (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11340) All these "cohorts" (as they are called: a number of test subjects) have been studied for health effects. And a lot of people that got high doses died of cancer. Unfortunately everyone of us has a high high probability of getting cancer at some point in his life. And it turns out that you need a lot of radiation to double the risk of getting this disease:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Increased_risk_with_dose.s...

The straight line in this plot represents the "linear model" which assumes that the additional chance of getting malignant tumors rises just the same as the amount of radioactivity. But then, if you go down to the very-low-end, which is very, very, very difficult to analyze, because you are looking at only miniscule differences in cancer-rates, sometimes people find that it appears that a small amount of radiation might even be beneficial and reduce the risk of acquiring cancer in a lifetime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#148
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While your comment as a whole is thoughtful and well written, I'm surprised to hear you say, "Medical imaging is not done very often..." Medical imaging is commonly overused, and its overuse is recognized as being one of the leading causes of certain types of cancer. For example, the original story explains... "In a 2011 report sponsored by Susan G. Komen, the Institute of Medicine concluded that radiation from medic…

Perhaps it varies wildly between countries. I've never heard of anyone I know having a CT scan, but I know of 3 MRI scans.

I've lived in both the us and Canada. I noticed that mri and CT scan scans were really easy to get done in the us, but would often require a month or more of waiting in Canada for non Urgent issues. I wonder how much the overuse contributes to differences in health care costs between countries?

Re: We Are Giving Ourselves Cancer

#149
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a relatively inexpensive portable Geiger counter or something that can measure this type of radiation?

http://www.amazon.com/RADStickerTM-radiation-exposure-determ...

Or you could just get an app (and some black tape), depending on the energy range you want to look at:

http://www.xinexus.ch/nuclear-radiation-dosimeter/index.html

edit: I think I got the wrong thing there.. better go for this:

http://www.hotray-info.de/html/radioactivity.html

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