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Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

chawkins.org

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Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#72
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. This is a very old argument, but the economy is not a zero-sum game.

> Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. This is wrong. First wealth is not extracted from people...it is created from a voluntary exchange. Think about why people handed over money to the "wealthy" in the first place. It was in exchange for a good or service that made that person wealthy where wealth is defined by being better off than they were before. Money is just a unit of exchange that…

For the most part I agree with this explanation, but it does not apply to certain cases such as inheritance. Unfortunately the tendency to portray all wealthy people as entitled heirs has been around since the days of explicit aristocracy.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some 87% of world population lives below the "poverty line" as defined in the USA. Without everyone sharing a sensible consistent definition of the word, the discussion will come to nothing but blows.

Different places in the world should have different poverty lines related to the purchasing power needed to acquire at least the basic living needs: food, shelter, and clothing. (and healthcare) Comparing the numerical figure of the poverty line around to world is nonsensical.

The "87%" is PPP corrected.

You make my point: it is nonsensical to argue about "poor" when wildly contradictory definitions are being used. A great many legally "poor" in the USA have homes, cars, running hot/cold clean water, HVAC, cable TV, smartphones, etc. and a livable income plus generous free food. For other areas, having a little more than an objectively minimal nutritional intake, survivable shelter, adequate clothing, and mundane healthcare counts one as "not poor" despite still being well below the official US standard.

We need an objective definition of "poor" better than "can't get by on $X in the world's most expensive cities".

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#74
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. This is a very old argument, but the economy is not a zero-sum game.

> Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. This is wrong. First wealth is not extracted from people...it is created from a voluntary exchange. Think about why people handed over money to the "wealthy" in the first place. It was in exchange for a good or service that made that person wealthy where wealth is defined by being better off than they were before. Money is just a unit of exchange that…

> Following this logic the wealthy have already paid their dues so to speak by making other people more wealthy.

Wow, so simplistic. Answer this, then: Why are poor people poor?

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

Not dishonest. It is possible, in fact, for people to have moral views which differ from yours in good faith. This warrants respect, not insults.

I create wealth by pure thought. Sure that sounds stupid to some, but it's quite true: with about a thousand dollars' worth of borrowed equipment, I sit here writing software to do things useful to my employer. I am not "extracting wealth", I am creating it, organizing electron flows to do things useful to clients, things they are willing to pay for whereby both of us (client & developer) benefit. It is my right to write software, my client's right to use that software, and our right to work out an exchange of representations of wealth. The only "extraction" happens by contracting the exchange of one thing/service for another, facilitated by the abstraction of currency; this creates more wealth in the system, leaving both in a better place than they would be otherwise.

My country's government was created to facilitate the exercise of rights by delegating limited powers to government. Insofar as the "shared system" goes, taxation exists to fund those limited powers, and arguably provide a minimal safety net to the truly destitute (insofar as charity is unable to). Beyond that, ownership is a respected & protected right, and the economy functions by people creating things to own (wealth) and exchanging representations of that wealth (money).

What you & other "wealth inequality" agitators "ask" for is theft, insofar as it demands - under threat of violence by those unrelated to that wealth - those who create or negotiate more wealth than others must, with no objective basis in ownership & contract, give to those who have done nothing for it.

I understand what we have is not a perfect system; that imperfection is a consequence of what some deem "original sin" (adjust terminology as your values see fit to match the point). Bad as it may be, it is better than any other system wherein one group extorts wealth from others without agreement or moral right thereto. Just because one manages to leverage opportunity better than others does not mean those others can "rectify" the situation by saying "we outnumber you, we've decided what you own belongs to us, and if you don't hand it over we'll do horrible things to you."

Yes, progressive taxation is institutionalized theft. Taxation should fund the costs of government carrying out limited powers to facilitate rights as delegated by the national constitution; insofar as income taxation is the current method, it should be blind (as justice should be). The counterpart to your notion that the wealthy exploit the system, is that the wealth pump the system too: their wealth is not squirreled away out of reach of the shared economy, it is rammed right back in thru investments, creation of markets for luxury goods, and prolific charity; the evil you impute is at minimum balanced by the good it creates. Every dollar should be taxed equally, as (on the whole) those who acquire more income do much in the shared economy with it. Insofar as sheer poverty fits in, I'll acquiesce to deducting a minimum income; if you're better off than objectively poor, you can do your fair share too.

Those agitating about "wealth inequality" always fail to objectively address the charity which the rich give to. Just because someone isn't giving money via taxation doesn't mean they're not doing tremendous good; confiscating more by taxation reduces what they can and do give by other ways.

And, just to hammer the point home yet another way (however palatable it may or not be): in a well-armed population, "majority rules" is not sufficient grounds for confiscation. There are a LOT of people prepared to fight back against the self-appointed redistributors of wealth. They know the consequences, so don't want to go there, but will if it comes to that.

TL;DR:

It's.

Not.

Yours.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. This is wrong. First wealth is not extracted from people...it is created from a voluntary exchange. Think about why people handed over money to the "wealthy" in the first place. It was in exchange for a good or service that made that person wealthy where wealth is defined by being better off than they were before. Money is just a unit of exchange that…

> Following this logic the wealthy have already paid their dues so to speak by making other people more wealthy. Wow, so simplistic. Answer this, then: Why are poor people poor?

Wealth can be consumed and destroyed. If you consume/destroy more than you create and/or trade for, you have a net loss which isn't anyone else's fault.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#77
post #57

Are welfare payments included in income of an individual or not?

If the US gave all the money to people below the poverty line (46.5 million; 15% of the population) $175 Billion we would have zero poor in US. That is a 1% of our GDP. Military budget = $700 billion in comparison. If we just gave $3,000 to each person below poverty we would have 23 million people above the poverty line. Please tell me that this can't even be a question on inequality of the super rich and the poor? N…

Problem is, those who's own wealth/power depends on a large population in "poverty" will just redefine "poor" up - as they've done many times already. The value of money would reduce because recipients thereof trade nothing for it, thus raising the cost of goods accordingly, pushing some things back out of reach of the "poor".

We already give an enormous amount to the "poor". If you make less than a given amount, various welfare programs will fill the gap (some pushing you WAY above the line). It's enough that another problem is arising: many on welfare receive so much that they can't afford to work, lest they lose all those benefits and reap less net income as a consequence.

Again, I come back to the issue of defining the word "poor". As is, it's not objective relative to the recipient's survival.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different places in the world should have different poverty lines related to the purchasing power needed to acquire at least the basic living needs: food, shelter, and clothing. (and healthcare) Comparing the numerical figure of the poverty line around to world is nonsensical.

Absolutely agree, having a single worldwide standard would put ALL US residents in the 'wealthy' category when compared to places like Haiti.

I'll agree there. Haitians, on the whole, are indeed objectively poor: given the limited land to work with, the large & growing population, and the high cost of import/export infrastructure, there just isn't enough resources to support residents. This vs the USA, where there is enough resources, and the best answer to poverty in most cases is MOVE to where there are sufficient opportunity & resources (like the Dakotas, where even mundane jobs pay very well because they can't get enough people to do the work needed to facilitate extracting wealth from natural resources).

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#79
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

Class antagonism around here has ended pretty well historically. The 19th-century working class agitated against the aristocracy and landlord classes, and after a rocky start, the workers' parties successfully gained power in the 20th century. From around the 1920s/30s to about the 1970s most of the Nordic countries were led by nearly unchallenged social-democratic governments, which used their power to create the mo…

Scandinavian countries have some of the highest external debt per Capita, good job spending money you don't really own.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#80
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you take home a different income? I don't feel that the fact that I'm a computer scientist, which at the moment happens to pay well, ethically entitles me to more resources than other people. If anything I feel a bit guilty taking home several times the income of the guy who's been showing up at 7am every morning to replace my roof; my job is a lot more pleasant and enjoyable, and yet that in itself isn't…

For better or for worse, the guy working hard to replace your roof is easier to replace than you are - this is because you have a skill set he doesn't that takes a lot of time and resources to develop. In addition, your work (likely) brings in more money to a company than his. As such, you get paid more. As an aside, have you ever noticed that (certified) plumbers and electricians make a lot of money? Same reasoning.…

> I don't have a problem making more money now that I made myself valuable.

That could be part of our differences in outlook. I don't feel I've really "made myself" valuable, I just have skills and interests that happened to be valuable. I've liked computers since I was a kid, and am reasonably adept with them. When I grew up, somewhat to my surprise, I found out people paid quite a bit of money for that kind of thing. It feels sort of like playing careers on easy-mode; even if I were to totally wash out into a low-end programming position, I could still easily make high 5 figures slinging web templates or Ruby or PHP or something.

Other people who're harder-working and more talented than me make less, because they happened to be adept in the wrong thing (art or carpentry instead of coding, say). Were the era different, it could be the other way around, so I have a bit of a "there but for the grace of god go I" outlook: there are times when engineering was a poorly paid blue-collar occupation and skilled painters were highly rewarded. In that economy, I'd be poorer and some of my friends would be richer, through no change in our own skills...

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