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Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

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Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#51

Post by mbell »

examancer wrote: post #25
ctdonath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

> Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were exploited by it

That is already what happens. e.g. the top 10% by income already contribute >70% of the total federal income tax revenue.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#52

Post by dllthomas »

examancer wrote: post #25
ctdonath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

"Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever"

Or would be if it were original.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#53

Post by bwanab »

examancer wrote: post #25
ctdonath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

I agree with you, but with reservations. Despite significant evidence to the contrary, there are those who, far from extracting wealth, actually create it by their brains, hard work and luck. If we can acknowledge that, we can still argue that the shared commonwealth through which they worked was indispensable to their achievements. From each according to his/her ability may be thought of as Marxist, but the idea predated Marx by at least 1800 years and still makes sense.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#54

Post by sharemywin »

ctdonath wrote: post #23
examancer wrote: post #12

This is a side show. Whether or not the statistics show rising or falling income inequality is irrelevant. There is massive income inequality. Its trajectory isn't nearly as large of an issue as the status quo, which is pretty dismal. Until that gini coefficient is much better, and we have no one living below the poverty line, we still have a ton of work to do. This article seems to be making a shallow point only to…

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

The government giveth and the government can taketh away. Property rights, money, laws are all government constructions without them you can only keep what you can forcibly defend. so, "theft" has no meaning without a government to back it up.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

mbell wrote: post #51
examancer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

> Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were exploited by it That is already what happens. e.g. the top 10% by income already contribute >70% of the total federal income tax revenue.

> That is already what happens. e.g. the top 10% by income already contribute >70% of the total federal income tax revenue.

Which would be meaningful, if "federal income tax" was the only federal tax, or even the only federal tax on income.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#56

Post by rayiner »

ctdonath wrote: post #23
examancer wrote: post #12

This is a side show. Whether or not the statistics show rising or falling income inequality is irrelevant. There is massive income inequality. Its trajectory isn't nearly as large of an issue as the status quo, which is pretty dismal. Until that gini coefficient is much better, and we have no one living below the poverty line, we still have a ton of work to do. This article seems to be making a shallow point only to…

Institutionalized theft isn't an acceptable solution. Such class jealousy does not, historically, end well.

It's a mistake to call progressive tax systems "institutionalized theft," one predicated on misunderstanding the nature of the benefit the rich derive from civil society.

The very title "Atlas Shrugged" exemplifies the mistake. Your typical "Atlas" in modern society does not look like this: http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131015180238/monster.... He looks like this: http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Lloyd-Blank....

The rich do not pay taxes to keep the masses from using violence upon them. They do it so the masses will suppress the "men of war" that would otherwise dominate them. In reality, John Galt is not in charge once he shrugs off the yoke of society. Instead, men skilled in violence and war take advantage of that power vacuum and subjugate him, and he works to serve them. This state of affairs is not unprecedented. You only have to look back to Europe during feudal times to see it in operation. The technologists of that time didn't run the world. Barons and Earls and other military men ran the world. The technologists served the military class.

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#57

Post by baldfat »

ruchir_21hj wrote: post #6

Are welfare payments included in income of an individual or not?

If the US gave all the money to people below the poverty line (46.5 million; 15% of the population) $175 Billion we would have zero poor in US. That is a 1% of our GDP. Military budget = $700 billion in comparison.

If we just gave $3,000 to each person below poverty we would have 23 million people above the poverty line.

Please tell me that this can't even be a question on inequality of the super rich and the poor? Next thing Global Warming is a fraud?

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#58

Post by mchusma »

examancer wrote: post #45
mchusma wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you read the article, because you make some of the same points I do. "There is massive income inequality. Its trajectory isn't nearly as large of an issue as the status quo, which is pretty dismal." The point of the article is that inequality is itself isn't a good metric. "The right thing to do is to keep working to solve the core problem....Maybe even consider doing what Switzerland is considering, and…

I read the article and recognize your closing arguments are much more nuanced than the thesis of the article suggests. I apologize for not making that clear in my post. I still feel the overall point attacking the statistics of income inequality is much more likely to be used as a gavel to silence those working to improve the status quo. Articles like this are often cited when people try to take action to correct inc…

Thanks again. I did fix the Gini issue, which was my fault in trying to get something posted without sufficient editing.

I was surprised by how confusing the statistics were about the trend of income disparity. How the numbers varied widely by source, and how much definitions mattered. I think we both agree that the trend of this is not important.

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree on whether relative status is important or not. I would argue it is not important, except to the extent someone else pointed out that it provides political influence (which I do think I have a solution for). I prefer to look at absolute measures of improving the standard of living (life expectancy, health, food, entertainment, etc).

Re: Have US Income and Wealth Inequality Actually Increased?

#60

Post by bwanab »

mbell wrote: post #51
examancer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling progressive tax systems institutionalized theft is incredibly clever, and incredibly false. No one who has wealth created it by themselves. You don't print your own money, you don't extract wealth from a vaccum. Wealth is built by extracting that wealth from a shared economy. Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were…

> Asking those who were able to extract the most wealth to help the most in paying to protect this shared system, and help those who were exploited by it That is already what happens. e.g. the top 10% by income already contribute >70% of the total federal income tax revenue.

That's only income tax. When you include all federal taxes, the top 10% by income gives a still considerable 54%, but much lower than the 70% that is generally claimed.
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