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The upside to being let go by Nokia

bbc.co.uk

31–40 of 53 posts

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#31
post #22
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As European, I have been always put off by the work conditions there.

On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.

Not really. In many EU countries it is about 3x of average salary.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#32
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is tougher when one side expects to be able to get away with anything, and so often sees no downside in acting like total dicks. I'm from Norway, and I was shocked when I moved to the UK where typical notice periods is only one month. In Norway it is extremely hard to write a contract that will hold up that limits notice periods for full time non-seasonal workers to less than 3 months. Most of the time people…

Yes, as an employee it would be nice to have a three-month notice. But the downside is that it makes employers hesitant to hire someone in the first place if they know they will be stuck with them for three months. In the situation I described above, the employee in question failed to show up or call in for his very first day of work and gave some poor excuse the next day. And this behavior continued in the following…

What percentage of employees are total deadbeats like you describe? And what percentage are honest folks who would never do such a thing or even consider destroying their employer's property after being told they will be let go?

When you have a generous policy like this, you have to take the good with the bad. Personally, I feel that there are many, many good, decent folks who will benefit without screwing their employer for every deadbeat who will take gross advantage of the policy. In the case of the guy who smashed up the employer's equipment - what was the loss? $2,000? $5,000? Now what's that compared to the retained goodwill of hundreds or thousands of employees who are laid off over the lifetime of the company but leave with a positive impression because they weren't escorted around like a criminal?

It's a matter of your outlook on society. Do you have trust in the public, or do you target the worst-case scenario? This is the same thing as onerous requirements for getting welfare or unemployment payments. They are focused on the 1% or less who are trying to the game the system. In the process, they are hurting the 99% who just need a hand getting through a tough time. Why optimize for a 1% case?

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#33
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.

Speaking as another European who has always been put off by the usual American conditions, money is not a very big concern to me beyond my (admittedly quite frugal) standard of living. Time is a far, far, far more important resource, and working in the USA seems to include insane hours and constant overtime and few vacations. Also, I think you don't need that much money in Europe, thanks to things like socialized hea…

Agreed. As you get older too, you start to appreciate how much time is burned by working. It's good to work, just it shouldn't dominate your waking life.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#34
post #23
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.

Well a quick multiplier of 1.35 means $135k in USD yearly for a 6 figure salary. Well that's a rarity even for software developers here in US unless you are pretty darn good. BTW, how much is the average salary paid by american companies in Europe ?

I would say that's middle-of-the road for an experienced engineer in NYC.

Location is everything, I suppose.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, as an employee it would be nice to have a three-month notice. But the downside is that it makes employers hesitant to hire someone in the first place if they know they will be stuck with them for three months. In the situation I described above, the employee in question failed to show up or call in for his very first day of work and gave some poor excuse the next day. And this behavior continued in the following…

What percentage of employees are total deadbeats like you describe? And what percentage are honest folks who would never do such a thing or even consider destroying their employer's property after being told they will be let go? When you have a generous policy like this, you have to take the good with the bad. Personally, I feel that there are many, many good, decent folks who will benefit without screwing their empl…

This completely depends upon the industry, but from my experience in retail, I'd say the percentage of deadbeats / honest folks (when it comes to work ethic) is higher than you might think. At least here in the US.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is tougher when one side expects to be able to get away with anything, and so often sees no downside in acting like total dicks. I'm from Norway, and I was shocked when I moved to the UK where typical notice periods is only one month. In Norway it is extremely hard to write a contract that will hold up that limits notice periods for full time non-seasonal workers to less than 3 months. Most of the time people…

>most people who are offered/asked nicely to stop coming in to work earlier will come to a suitable arrangement What kind of arrangement? Keep all the money but don't come in? I would think three months at a position you are leaving would be kind of awkward.

Why would that be awkward? Your employer gets your expertise in training your replacement and you get enough time to find a new job; this seems rather sensible to me.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#37
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, 6 figures salary is as well a rarity in Euros (in EUR currency countries) for engineers. EDIT: I should had put more emphasis on "rarity" - lets say almost unimaginable. At least, I have an impression that it is much more common in USA.

Speaking as another European who has always been put off by the usual American conditions, money is not a very big concern to me beyond my (admittedly quite frugal) standard of living. Time is a far, far, far more important resource, and working in the USA seems to include insane hours and constant overtime and few vacations. Also, I think you don't need that much money in Europe, thanks to things like socialized hea…

Your forgot to include nightmarish commutes in your list of North American time-vampires.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of employees are total deadbeats like you describe? And what percentage are honest folks who would never do such a thing or even consider destroying their employer's property after being told they will be let go? When you have a generous policy like this, you have to take the good with the bad. Personally, I feel that there are many, many good, decent folks who will benefit without screwing their empl…

This completely depends upon the industry, but from my experience in retail, I'd say the percentage of deadbeats / honest folks (when it comes to work ethic) is higher than you might think. At least here in the US.

Well, it's retail. Retail jobs are a dime a dozen. Employees and employers both treat each other as completely expendable. That's why Costco swears by their approach of paying above market rate - it makes sure that their staff actually value their job, because it's not instantly replaceable by walking to the next high-turnover purgatory up the street.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#39
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is tougher when one side expects to be able to get away with anything, and so often sees no downside in acting like total dicks. I'm from Norway, and I was shocked when I moved to the UK where typical notice periods is only one month. In Norway it is extremely hard to write a contract that will hold up that limits notice periods for full time non-seasonal workers to less than 3 months. Most of the time people…

Yes, as an employee it would be nice to have a three-month notice. But the downside is that it makes employers hesitant to hire someone in the first place if they know they will be stuck with them for three months. In the situation I described above, the employee in question failed to show up or call in for his very first day of work and gave some poor excuse the next day. And this behavior continued in the following…

" But the downside is that it makes employers hesitant to hire someone in the first place if they know they will be stuck with them for three months."

The 3 month notice period is actually not required by law, but is so widespread that most people assume it is the minimum.

The minimum mandatory notice period depends on how long you have worked there. 0-5 years (1 month), 5-10 years (2 months), 10+ years (3 months).

The notice period specified in the contract do not apply to new hires. When someone is hired they are often put on a "probation period" that can last up to 6 months. In that time you can leave or be fired with a minimum of 2 weeks notice without having to explain why. Usually the contract specifies the maximum probation period (6 months) and a longer notice (1 month).

The probation period is completely optional, but most employers include it in the contract to avoid situations like the one you experienced.

Re: The upside to being let go by Nokia

#40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, as an employee it would be nice to have a three-month notice. But the downside is that it makes employers hesitant to hire someone in the first place if they know they will be stuck with them for three months. In the situation I described above, the employee in question failed to show up or call in for his very first day of work and gave some poor excuse the next day. And this behavior continued in the following…

What percentage of employees are total deadbeats like you describe? And what percentage are honest folks who would never do such a thing or even consider destroying their employer's property after being told they will be let go? When you have a generous policy like this, you have to take the good with the bad. Personally, I feel that there are many, many good, decent folks who will benefit without screwing their empl…

I'm no human-resource expert, but as far as the policy to escort terminated employees out of the building, I think this is one case where you need to trust the manager of the employee and hope for the best. If the manager knows that the employee is prone to outbursts or seems to have anger issues, it's likely best to do a more restricted process. But if the manager knows the employee well and is otherwise on good-terms it obviously would be better to do the termination without involving the humiliation of a formal security escort. I've seen both processes in the same company.

In the situation I described earlier, perhaps this employee's odd behavior (not showing up the very first day without even a phone call???) was a clue of larger issues that his manager should have heeded and keyed him to call in security when the time came to end his employment.

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