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Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

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151–160 of 217 posts

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#151
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded You're right that this is an additional risk factor, which would be eliminated in a design that required only passive cooling after shutdown (and newer designs have this feature). But "retarded" is too strong. Just having the backup generators not come on for a short time period isn't enough; th…

I agree that average over the kilowatt-hours nuclear might be safer than coal. But the problem is that the risk is HIGHLY concentrated. I can self-insure my computers because if one ever fails I have the cash to handle it. It's not a financial crisis. I don't self insure my car (for collision/comprehensive) because it's too big of an expense for me to absorb at any one time without severe hardship. Nuclear reactors (…

LFTR reactors have physics on their side in that if containment is lost, so is criticality.

But loss of criticality isn't sufficient for the reactor to be "safe". Even with the reactor no longer critical, there are still a lot of radioactive fission products left. The way to prevent them from escaping is secondary containment, which Chernobyl did not have, as I said (Fukushima, and indeed every other reactor ever built that wasn't built by the Soviet Union, has secondary containment).

Of course, as Fukushima illustrated, secondary containment is not the only necessary feature for safety. You also need decay heat cooling. The key advantage of a design like LFTR, as compared to a design like Fukushima, is passive decay heat cooling; simple thermodynamics is sufficient to keep the fission products contained and cooled after shutdown. That's why such reactors don't, in your words, "require power to stay safe, even if they're not generating power". However, LFTR is not the only possible design with passive decay heat cooling; there are ordinary pressurized water reactor designs that have passive decay heat cooling (by designing the piping circuits and placing the heat exchangers and core to take advantage of natural convection). Fukushima was not such a design, but they do exist (although AFAIK they didn't when Fukushima was built).

Nuclear reactors are one of the few pieces of infrastructure that can't simply be abandoned if something bad happens, or else the problem gets worse and worse and worse.

This is true, but it's just as true of passively cooled designs like LFTR. The problem here is what to do with the highly radioactive fission products. The way every nuclear-using country except the US deals with this is reprocessing: you take the spent fuel, separate out what's still fissionable (which is a pretty large fraction of it with most current designs), and put what remains through a special reactor that converts the fission products to either much longer-lived (and hence much less radioactive) or stable isotopes. Problem solved. France and Japan have been doing this at scale for several decades now. The only reason the US doesn't is politics.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#152
post #113
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three step process: 1) buy perrows book "normal accidents" 2) read the nuclear accident chapters 3) begin marching in the streets at the sign of any new old-style nuclear plants, or the continued operation of the existing ones. optional: 4) wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year. That type of nuclear power generation really is that terrible. (note - I am actually pro-nuclear-power…

wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year. Comparing Fukushima and Chernobyl is like comparing apples and turds. The debacle at Fukushima had nothing to do with the reactor design; it was due to the braindead siting of the backup diesel generators and their switchgear behind a seawall that got overrun by the tsunami. The reactor design itself was fine, and in fact has withstood loss…

The problems at Fukushima had to do with design and siting of the overall plant, which is, in fact, very much an element of engineering. Truth is, there are lots of ways for a nuke to fail, and the small comfort that Fukushima didn't fail in the same way Chernobyl did doesn't make Fukushima any less of a failure.

The Japanese have also exhibited some spectacularly poor nuclear management in the past (a criticality incident in fuel handling at Tokaimura: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaimura_nuclear_accident) and significant involvement by the Japanese mafia in TEPCO). In fact many or most nuclear incidents anywhere can be chalked up to poor management -- it's a major risk factor.

As for the US Navy, the man who made that happen argued strongly against nuclear power. US Navy Rear Admiral Hyman Rickover:

I do not believe that nuclear power is worth it if it creates radiation. Then you might ask me why do I have nuclear powered ships. That is a necessary evil. I would sink them all. I am not proud of the part I played in it. I did it because it was necessary for the safety of this country. (see full quote and others at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover#Willingness_...)

Rickover also explicitly noted that the US Navy's safety was the result of a total philosophy and approach, not a solution which could be ladled or patched on to other systems.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#153
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurzweil would probably respond that nanobots and the singularity will fix everything.

Kurzweil believes that being very very small allows you to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics. There's no physics to back this up...

Got a specific pointer / reference on this?

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#154
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same can't be done with nuclear waste. Why not? Just bury it a bit deeper. But it doesn't matter - you don't need to. Unlike bags, there is so little nuclear waste we can afford to dedicate one tiny area to it. The entire nuclear waste of the US in the past 40 years can fit in a room 350 feet on each side. (Basically 1 city block.) That's it. That's all the space you need for the entire united states!

Why don't they do that then? Why do I keep seeing news of waste languishing in temporary storage, being "secretly" moved to different temporary storage, drifting in dust form over entire communities, leaking out into groundwater, etc.? Maybe DOE should hire some HN experts so they'll learn how the job ought to be done? As much money as the nuclear industry has stolen from taxpayers, I think they can afford you.

They tried to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_r...

But "environmentalists" stepped in and ended funding. Now we are stuck with the current situation of pretty much every power plant for themselves and storage all over the country.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#155
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurzweil believes that being very very small allows you to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics. There's no physics to back this up...

Sure there is. The second law of thermodynamics (which I am assuming you are referring to) only applies to an isolated system and describes its tendency toward thermal equilibrium -- it doesn't apply when you are able to add energy to the system. Am I misunderstanding you?

Open systems still obey thermodynamics, it's just that there's an energy flux (and an entropy gradient).

Look up Ilya Prigogine, self-organizing systems, and dissipative systems.

Humans and their societies (and other artifacts) are one such.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end?

The water would rain down eventually and replenish natural reservoirs. This, of course, further limits where the plant must be located (coastal areas would not be adequate for this)

There's no assurance the water would rain down where you wanted it to.

Since the Earth is radiating its heat anyway, just over more area, you're also only transferring that evaporation to specific locations (though it's possible that goethermal heat would radiate into space without heating and vaporizing water in some cases).

On a net basis the effect would likely be too small to matter. I suspect utilizing the heat more directly for either heating or generating purposes would be more useful.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#157
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the notion that you can have a power plant which requires outside power in order to not melt-down is -- frankly -- retarded You're right that this is an additional risk factor, which would be eliminated in a design that required only passive cooling after shutdown (and newer designs have this feature). But "retarded" is too strong. Just having the backup generators not come on for a short time period isn't enough; th…

I agree that average over the kilowatt-hours nuclear might be safer than coal. But the problem is that the risk is HIGHLY concentrated. I can self-insure my computers because if one ever fails I have the cash to handle it. It's not a financial crisis. I don't self insure my car (for collision/comprehensive) because it's too big of an expense for me to absorb at any one time without severe hardship. Nuclear reactors (…

This is a positive feedback cycle rather than a negative one.

It occurred to me on re-reading that you might have been referring here to the fact that the Chernobyl reactor had a number of features that acted to increase rather than decrease reactor power as actions were taken to try to shut it down. Those features are not present in any current reactor designs that weren't made by the Soviet Union. Certainly they were not present in the Fukushima reactors.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#158
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year. Comparing Fukushima and Chernobyl is like comparing apples and turds. The debacle at Fukushima had nothing to do with the reactor design; it was due to the braindead siting of the backup diesel generators and their switchgear behind a seawall that got overrun by the tsunami. The reactor design itself was fine, and in fact has withstood loss…

The problems at Fukushima had to do with design and siting of the overall plant, which is, in fact, very much an element of engineering. Truth is, there are lots of ways for a nuke to fail, and the small comfort that Fukushima didn't fail in the same way Chernobyl did doesn't make Fukushima any less of a failure. The Japanese have also exhibited some spectacularly poor nuclear management in the past (a criticality in…

poor management -- it's a major risk factor

This is true of any field in which, in the words of Feynman in his report on the Challenger disaster, "reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled".

the man who made that happen argued strongly against nuclear power.

As the Rickover quote you give shows, Rickover thought of "radiation" as having magical powers, like many members of the uninformed public. His arguments on such grounds are not cogent. (Another quote in the Wiki article shows that Rickover also disliked nuclear power because of its relationship to nuclear weapons, which is more reasonable, although still not sufficient to justify getting rid of nuclear power IMO.)

His comments on the US Navy's particular philosophy, which worked for a military organization but would not work for civilian power companies, are valid as far as they go. However, to me that's a bug, not a feature. To see why, consider the following sketch of an alternate history: in the mid-1970's, having realized that OPEC is not going to play nice any more and therefore foreign oil is not a good basis on which to run the US economy, the US government makes nuclear power a national priority on national security grounds (much as France did). Knowing that existing reactor designs require skilled operators and strict procedures to ensure safety, the government institutes licensing similar to what is done with professionals in various fields, such as engineers, whose activities can, if done incorrectly, pose significant risk to the public. The US Navy program is used as a model, but the military-style aspects of it are adjusted to something more appropriate for a commercial endeavor.

Result: in the alternate 2014, the US imports no oil (except possibly from Canada), the majority of base load electricity comes from nuclear power plants, coal mines are all shut down and their sites cleaned up to serve as ski resorts, offshore oil drilling is a thing of the past (so no Deepwater Horizon spill), and the US can just leave the Middle East alone (so no special treatment of Saudi Arabia, probably no 9/11, no invasion of Iraq).

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#159
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same can't be done with nuclear waste. Why not? Just bury it a bit deeper. But it doesn't matter - you don't need to. Unlike bags, there is so little nuclear waste we can afford to dedicate one tiny area to it. The entire nuclear waste of the US in the past 40 years can fit in a room 350 feet on each side. (Basically 1 city block.) That's it. That's all the space you need for the entire united states!

Why don't they do that then? Why do I keep seeing news of waste languishing in temporary storage, being "secretly" moved to different temporary storage, drifting in dust form over entire communities, leaking out into groundwater, etc.? Maybe DOE should hire some HN experts so they'll learn how the job ought to be done? As much money as the nuclear industry has stolen from taxpayers, I think they can afford you.

Because every time they try a bunch of people go 'OMG nuclear waste aaaaah' and object. We could be storing all the waste in a super-secure facility under yucca Mountain in Nevada, but is in limbo because of a few thousand people in Nevada. So we have it stored unsecurely at 131 different sites instead.

http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/depts/comprehensive_planning/nu...

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