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Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

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Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#111

Post by sp332 »

Crito wrote: post #97
mrottenkolber wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume I am defending coal? It's irrational confidence like yours that nuclear power is in any way safe, and therefore a good replacement. Coal doesn't need a replacement, we need to start using energy responsibly. That means not using energy when we don't have it. A nuclear plant is not an acceptable way to generate energy.

Arguing against nuclear is de facto arguing for coal. Current options for renewable baseload power generation are limited. This will with any luck change sometime in the future, but in the present less nuclear means more coal. Using less power is not a realistic proposal. You should not expect that to be taken seriously.

Actually, thanks partly to more-efficient tech and mostly to the economy, America's energy usage has been lower in the past few years.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#112

Post by sp332 »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #109
mrottenkolber wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume I am defending coal? It's irrational confidence like yours that nuclear power is in any way safe, and therefore a good replacement. Coal doesn't need a replacement, we need to start using energy responsibly. That means not using energy when we don't have it. A nuclear plant is not an acceptable way to generate energy.

We think you're defending coal because you say things like "Coal doesn't need a replacement [...] a nuclear plant is not an acceptable way to generate energy" despite the fact that the coal plants are way more polluting and radioactive.

"Coal doesn't need a replacement, we need to start using energy responsibly." That means: stop using coal, and don't replace it with anything. Just stop using so much power.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#113

Post by pdonis »

rsync wrote: post #92
moocowduckquack wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current nuclear industry has some serious downsides. The only reason established nuclear is presented as ecological is due to the discussion about climate impact. Without the CO2 blinkers on though, it is pretty fucking messy.

Three step process: 1) buy perrows book "normal accidents" 2) read the nuclear accident chapters 3) begin marching in the streets at the sign of any new old-style nuclear plants, or the continued operation of the existing ones. optional: 4) wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year. That type of nuclear power generation really is that terrible. (note - I am actually pro-nuclear-power…

wonder in amazement how a chernobyl or fukushima isn't happening every year.

Comparing Fukushima and Chernobyl is like comparing apples and turds. The debacle at Fukushima had nothing to do with the reactor design; it was due to the braindead siting of the backup diesel generators and their switchgear behind a seawall that got overrun by the tsunami. The reactor design itself was fine, and in fact has withstood loss of coolant conditions that, by any reasonable prior expectation, should have caused much more radiation release than they did.

Chernobyl, on the other hand, had:

* No secondary containment;

* A Soviet-run staff that thought running badly controlled experiments at high power levels was just dandy;

* A graphite moderator that ignited when exposed to air.

Fukushima is not even in the same league from that perspective.

That type of nuclear power generation really is that terrible.

This is a serious overstatement. Many reactors designed along the same general lines have delivered decades of power with no problems. (Not to mention that the US Navy has run reactors of similar design on its ships for decades with no problems.) I'm all for improving reactor designs, but I also think there are existing designs that could have gotten plenty more use without significant added risk. The fact that we haven't done that is a bug, not a feature.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#114

Post by Crito »

sp332 wrote: post #111
Crito wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing against nuclear is de facto arguing for coal. Current options for renewable baseload power generation are limited. This will with any luck change sometime in the future, but in the present less nuclear means more coal. Using less power is not a realistic proposal. You should not expect that to be taken seriously.

Actually, thanks partly to more-efficient tech and mostly to the economy, America's energy usage has been lower in the past few years.

Do you have a source for that? Wolfram Alpha shows a slight dip corresponding with the recession, and the data cuts off at 2010, but the overall trend seems pretty damming: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+power+usage

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#115

Post by Crito »

gaius wrote: post #100
sourkremlin wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is. The second law of thermodynamics (which I am assuming you are referring to) only applies to an isolated system and describes its tendency toward thermal equilibrium -- it doesn't apply when you are able to add energy to the system. Am I misunderstanding you?

Simply that nanotech can accomplish miracles. You have to power your nanobots somehow, and you have to dump the heat they create by doing work.

So why is that a big deal? There are trillions of nano-machines being powered and dumping their waste heat in you right now. Or rather, they are you.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#116

Post by angersock »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #106
narrator wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kurzweil would probably respond that nanobots and the singularity will fix everything.

How about not fucking things up in the first place? It's stupid to cause an unnecessary problem because one day we might have a solution.

That was never an option. Why do you hate America?

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#117

Post by sp332 »

Crito wrote: post #114
sp332 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, thanks partly to more-efficient tech and mostly to the economy, America's energy usage has been lower in the past few years.

Do you have a source for that? Wolfram Alpha shows a slight dip corresponding with the recession, and the data cuts off at 2010, but the overall trend seems pretty damming: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+power+usage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States#Co... shows residential and commercial electricity usage declining in 2000 but doesn't seem to have later data.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2013/... says homes are down to using less energy in 2013 than anytime since the early 2000's. Here's a graph of energy use over time http://nation.time.com/2013/10/24/interactive-see-how-americ...

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#118

Post by angersock »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #107
grecy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What in rural Wyoming would ever justify spending half a million dollars for a single water well? You need to think further into the future. What happens in 50-100-200 years when all the surface and near-surface water is spoken for, and there is literally not enough water for the population to even drink? (If you think I've being doomsdayish, this actually happens in Australia - a buddy of mine with a newborn in a…

I mean, on those time scales we could (more expensively) desalinate water using fusion power.

Or even more cheaply, reduce the number of people!

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#119

Post by WildUtah »

Theodores wrote: post #83
pilom wrote: post #6

Funny for this to come up now. I'm reading Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner now which is all about water policy in the western US. The short answer is that we consume WAY more water than all of the precipitation on the entire region can support so we end up depleting the aquifers. Eventually (likely within my lifetime) those will dry up and they we will have to either start diverting water from Canada and Alaska, or d…

I read Cadillac Desert more than twenty years ago and I got a lot out of it. I really wanted to loan my copy to someone, but, being British and living in the UK, I just did not find anyone to share the joy of that book with. It helps to have a love and a fascination for the American West, sadly none of my friends on this side of the pond have that so I never loaned out Cadillac Desert . Anyway, you have made my day b…

Cadillac Desert is one of the great American books of the twentieth century. I wish I could make everyone in my region read it.

And Ed Abbey wrote some great books, too. Desert Solitaire is always worth rereading. Last time I was camping at the Maze I took in a couple evening sunsets enjoying that book again.

Re: Message from Mexico: U.S. Is Polluting Water It May Someday Need to Drink

#120

Post by angersock »

GFischer wrote: post #50
crusso wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nowadays most people don't even know what a swale is crusso raises his hand then goes off to google.

Me too, you always learn something new :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swale_(landform)

Wow, it's like Houston personified.
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