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California Pollution: Made in China?
21–30 of 32 posts
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure how the situation you describe isn't a catch-22. You state that if CA regulates their factories, for example: requiring that they meet strict pollution standards, they will move. When they move, CA no longer has jurisdiction over the excrement they shoot into the air. So you state that CA should just not regulate their factories. This doesn't sound like a solution at all.
The solution is to tax goods originating in places with inferior environmental (or labor, or human rights, or whatever you care about) standards to the degree that the difference in regulatory costs is moot.
An interesting addition to that would be any tax revenues originating from such country would be earmarked/donated to go back directly to that country to improve environmental, labor or human rights standards. By donating it back to the country, it becomes less of a protectionist tariff and would potentially improve conditions there, but at the same time would make companies in the US who are subject to stricter regulation more competitive.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How ironic CA actually gives a crap about the air their citizens breathe, wait, no, that's not ironic at all. Believe me china is beginning to give a crap also, in a major way. No one can live with sucky air, even the Chinese (and us expats who have to deal with crazy bad air quality...). Even if they do eventually start cleaning up their act (which I doubt) the price has already been paid. The world now has to bea…
Are you too young to know all the asthma kids that grew up in no and so cal in the 70s/80s? Pollution in California used to be bad, then the people got serious about it, and now California has clean air. Incremental my ass. I guess you would have settled for incrementally decreasing numbers of asthma kids? Pollution has gotten so bad in china that it is seriously threatening the CCP's continued existence. They will e…
>Are you too young to know all the asthma kids that grew up in no and so cal in the 70s/80s? Pollution in California used to be bad, then the people got serious about it, and now California has clean air. Incremental my ass. I guess you would have settled for incrementally decreasing numbers of asthma kids?
Because of the Laws that we made: OK kids the good news first... you don't have asthma. The bad news ... Millions of Chinese people through no fault of their own (but rather their government) are dead or dying and the planet is half dead too. Global climate change was accelerated significantly and will kill many of your great grandchildren and perhaps end the human race eventually... Feel better? Are you sure we really did the "Responsible" thing here?
We can push a problem off to a foreign country (who handles it a lot worse than we would) and wash our hands of it but eventually things will be a lot worse for everyone.
>Pollution in California used to be bad, then the people got serious about it, and now California has clean air
We do? Must be my eyes then that make the air look smoggy every day.
Look! If people want to fill their houses, garages, yards and public storage lockers with crap from China/Walmart, they should have to look outside and see the effects of it. Putting if off on the Chinese was one of the most irresponsible things that could have been done.
Since this big shift in environmental policy that drove all the factories out of the the country, coupled with free trade agreements - US consumption of manufactured goods per capita has more than tripled. Why do we need all this crap? It is ruining the environment and we cannot even see the effects of it around us yet.
If people could look around them and see gross pollution their over consumption was causing, only then would they really cut back on buying all the crap.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure how the situation you describe isn't a catch-22. You state that if CA regulates their factories, for example: requiring that they meet strict pollution standards, they will move. When they move, CA no longer has jurisdiction over the excrement they shoot into the air. So you state that CA should just not regulate their factories. This doesn't sound like a solution at all.
That is why I used the term "swift and strangling". They were too aggressive and now the planet has to pay. This is akin to vigilantes who end up killing innocents because they are overzealous. Unfortunately, these politicians don't have to answer to anyone. Imagine that, a group of "environmentalists" pushing stiff regulations actually caused more damage then they thought they would prevent. Idiots. They could have…
I think you're assuming your conclusion a bit too strongly.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is why I used the term "swift and strangling". They were too aggressive and now the planet has to pay. This is akin to vigilantes who end up killing innocents because they are overzealous. Unfortunately, these politicians don't have to answer to anyone. Imagine that, a group of "environmentalists" pushing stiff regulations actually caused more damage then they thought they would prevent. Idiots. They could have…
Please explain how CA regulations forced manufacturers to China, and not merely to Arizona.
>Please explain how CA regulations forced manufacturers to China, and not merely to Arizona.
Well more often not actually moving the factory to China, really it is just sending the designs to an existing factory there.
If you (as a factory owner or group of owners) were being forced to pay a huge amount of money and take a concerted amount of effort to relocate a factory because you cannot afford to make all the overly stringent environmental concessions that were placed on you (or alternatively go out of business). You would definitely sit down and consider all your options.
Do you (as a factory owner) want to uproot your family and move as well. Do you want to bet the company in an expensive and risky move? How do you know that Arizona won't pass the same law 5 years down the road?
The other alternative would be to take higher profits and less risk by beginning to incrementally phase in products made in china and eventually completely shut down your plant and leave only your administrative and engineering offices open?
What would any achievement/profit minded person do?
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#26There was a science fiction short story I read about someone who was an officer in the pollution control agency in some random city in the USA. This officer was tracking down an illegal vehicle (it was petrol powered, and being picked up by city-wide microphones). It turns out the owner of the vehicle was the head honcho of the pollution control agency, who had seen the pollution from China reaching the Eastern seaboard of the USA and decided it was game over: no point complying with pollution regulations when the pollution from China was going to kill everyone anyway.
From memory the story was called "The Breath of the Dragon". I think it was in an Isaac Asimov "Analog" magazine.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#27What a terrible article... It claims there is 'A lot' of pollution coming from China specifically and ending up in California. The way they deduced this 'fact' is that 208Pb levels spiked at the same times in both China and California. That tells you absolutely nothing.
This comment is not accurate. Both locations measured were in California. The correlation to Asia is the timing of the spikes and dust storms in Asia. Not a climate scientist, so I don't know how good of an argument that is, but if you're going to post a strongly worded response you best characterize the opposing arguments correctly.
The correlation is the ratio of the lead isotopes, which is specific for that Asien region. Lead from other sources has a different isotope ratio. (Don't have data right now so I don't know how specific it is.) (Of course, mixing has to be taken into account when backtracking.)
It is actually a pretty good argument. However, it only applies to PM2.5 lead itself, since different materials can behave very differently (chemistry etc). Also, how and where the lead came from the metal ores and coal into the air is not part of the research.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
The paper goes into greater detail; "a lot" ~ 29% in this case. Using regionally specific isotope mixes to identify sources of pollution seems like a pretty good idea; why shouldn't it work?
Well, the article makes it sound like they're basing the research on the assumption that the 208Pb comes from Asia simply because it spikes in the spring. I would hope they have reason to believe in the specificity of that marker for Asian pollution, rather than actually engaging in such wild speculation, but if they do, the article skips over it. Also, the non-sequitur about iPhones and iPads at the end is completel…
The article is wrong.
From the abstract:
'We tested whether Pb isotope ratios in airborne particles can be used to directly evaluate the Asian contribution to airborne particles of anthropogenic origin in western North America, using a time series of samples from a pair of sites upwind and downwind of the San Francisco Bay Area. Our results for airborne Pb at these sites indicate a median value of 29% Asian origin, based on mixing relations between distinct regional sample groups.'
If it was unfounded, the reviewers would have shot it down.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
How ironic CA actually gives a crap about the air their citizens breathe, wait, no, that's not ironic at all. Believe me china is beginning to give a crap also, in a major way. No one can live with sucky air, even the Chinese (and us expats who have to deal with crazy bad air quality...).
> How ironic CA actually gives a crap about the air their citizens breathe, wait, no, that's not ironic at all. Believe me china is beginning to give a crap also, in a major way. No one can live with sucky air, even the Chinese (and us expats who have to deal with crazy bad air quality...). Even if they do eventually start cleaning up their act (which I doubt) the price has already been paid. The world now has to bea…
If those 16 ships are carrying goods from most efficient source to most efficient consumer at a cleaner carbon-per-pound-per-mile rate than a fleet of smaller ships, then it's a net win.
Re: California Pollution: Made in China?
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you too young to know all the asthma kids that grew up in no and so cal in the 70s/80s? Pollution in California used to be bad, then the people got serious about it, and now California has clean air. Incremental my ass. I guess you would have settled for incrementally decreasing numbers of asthma kids? Pollution has gotten so bad in china that it is seriously threatening the CCP's continued existence. They will e…
> Are you too young to know all the asthma kids that grew up in no and so cal in the 70s/80s? Pollution in California used to be bad, then the people got serious about it, and now California has clean air. Incremental my ass. I guess you would have settled for incrementally decreasing numbers of asthma kids? Because of the Laws that we made: OK kids the good news first... you don't have asthma. The bad news ... Milli…
Love the down-voted replies with no rebuttal. Shows the ignorance of HN viewers.